Wood stove water heat

[electrathon]

They are not required to pay if you purposely modify a ul listed product voiding its listing and making it potentially unsafe. Believe me they don't have to pay in that case i have gone on enough insurance evaluations to say that with absolute certainty.

Well, my insurance company does not seem to know about this. I think yours do not want to, may tell you they do not have to, but in the end are required to. There is a huge difference with what some will tell you and what they have to do.

Every repair of every product potentially nullifies the UL listing, does not mean you can not repair/modify things. Replace the brakes on your car with non factory brakes, change tire types, install a wood stove inside a fireplace, etc. All altered the original design plan, this does not mean it is wrong or unsafe.

 

[bholler]

Every repair of every product potentially nullifies the UL listing, does not mean you can not repair/modify things. Replace the brakes on your car with non factory brakes, change tire types, install a wood stove inside a fireplace, eat. All altered the original design plan, this does not mean it is wrong or unsafe.

Ok how many insurance evaluations have you been called to do? How many time have you testified in court regarding denied insurance claims? Some of the main questions asked are was this a listed appliance? if so was it installed to manufacturers specs? was it modified in any way?

Every repair of every product potentially nullifies the UL listing

Not when done properly

 

[bholler]

Ultimatly it will be up to the adjuster some will come out and just ok the claim but some will call in an expert to evaluate it.

 

[electrathon]

Ok how many insurance evaluations have you been called to do? How many time have you testified in court regarding denied insurance claims? Some of the main questions asked are was this a listed appliance? if so was it installed to manufacturers specs? was it modified in any way?


Not when done properly

My very last responce unless someone is interested in heating water with your wood stove.

I have not testified in court over an insurance company denying claims. That has nothing to do with the law. Yes, I have some experience there.

http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/janfeb2004.pdf
from The UL site. Again, every repair modification potentially nullifies the UL listing. They can re certify it, very expensive and time consuming. The quality of the repair is not the question, the inspection, by a certified UL person is.

Again, please feel free to ask me questions on the water heating system. I apologize for getting drawn into the above discussion.

 

[bholler]

Again, every repair modification potentially nullifies the UL listing.

But most stove manufacturers allow repairs using factory parts without effecting the ul listing. And ul concurs. The ting about you whole thread is that there are major safety and liability issues with the way you are doing it. So this discussion has everything to do with your original post. And by that has nothing to do with the law are you saying that insurance claims never end up in court? I beg to differ.

 

[begreen]

OK, point made. Moving on.

If you have the time it would be helpful to see a schematic diagram of the system. Wood stove hw heaters are uncommon here but still used in Europe in some countries. The guru of all things wood heated also has a hot water system and oven based on his radically modified PE stove.
http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/stove.htm
Some kitchen cook stoves still have boiler systems too.

 

[Grisu]

What stovetop temps do you actually have? I am surprised that the water does not get really hot. The place above the baffle should still have ~800 to 1000 F.

 

[Squirrel]

the ability to instantly boil a gallon of water would take a tremendous amount of energy

That depends where you start from. A gallon of water at 211.99F will not take much energy to become instant steam. BOOM!

 

[PWash]

That depends where you start from. A gallon of water at 211.99F will not take much energy to become instant steam. BOOM!

actually, it takes a whole lot of energy to vaporize a gallon of water. if youve ever boiled water on your kitchen stove or in a microwave, youd know it doesnt suddenly flash and fill your house with steam. google "heat of vaporization" to learn more.

 

[electrathon]

OK, point made. Moving on.

If you have the time it would be helpful to see a schematic diagram of the system. Wood stove hw heaters are uncommon here but still used in Europe in some countries. The guru of all things wood heated also has a hot water system and oven based on his radically modified PE stove.
http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/stove.htm
Some kitchen cook stoves still have boiler systems too.

Awsome. Quickly read through, will read it thourghly. I will draw up the system up soon, I have a chaotic schedule for the next few days.

 

[electrathon]

What stovetop temps do you actually have? I am surprised that the water does not get really hot. The place above the baffle should still have ~800 to 1000 F.

Not positive, and honestly not sure why I have not checked. I used to have an older Blaze king princess and the surface temp was usually 4-500 degrees. I had a magnet thermometer,it was easy to test. I am assuming in the same ball park.

 

[electrathon]

That depends where you start from. A gallon of water at 211.99F will not take much energy to become instant steam. BOOM!

actually, it takes a whole lot of energy to vaporize a gallon of water. if youve ever boiled water on your kitchen stove or in a microwave, youd know it doesnt suddenly flash and fill your house with steam. google "heat of vaporization" to learn more.

Thank you. Also, I have 64 psi in my water system, at that pressure the water will not boil till just under 300 degrees. If the pressure is released, like a broken pipe,it will quickly boil at that temp. But boiling and expansion are not the same as exploding.

Even so, the volume of the 3/4 inch pipe in the stove is far closer to a tenth of a gallon. That amount of water moves forward pretty fast when the pump cycles on. The hot water moves out and the cooler water moves into the pipe, absorbing the energy out of the pipe. It runs a bit, then cycles off. The process starts over. If I remember the temperature differential is about 20 degrees when the pump cycles. There is a sensor above the stove and one in the bottom of the tank, where the cool water is drawn from.

 

[PWash]

the discussion about boiling made me think of how an airlift pump operates. i dont think that effect would justify a viable use for designing your system to try and boil water, though.. the low amount of heat you generate would probably allow the water vapour to collapse inside the pipe as it exits the stove and cause pitting/ wear on the pipe walls.

if your coil inside the stove and/or pipe outside were sloped upwards to a reservoir or in some other clever fashion, you might get some automatic circulation just from natural convection.

 

[Highbeam]

But boiling and expansion are not the same as exploding.

Biting tongue.

 

[Squirrel]

actually, it takes a whole lot of energy to vaporize a gallon of water. if youve ever boiled water on your kitchen stove or in a microwave, youd know it doesnt suddenly flash and fill your house with steam. google "heat of vaporization" to learn more.

OK so the heat of vaporization of a gallon of water is 8083.432 Btu at atmospheric pressure. We are talking about a stove that puts out 80,000 Btu per hour so you would have a few minutes to run if you were watching your thermometer closely. Also assuming it takes a gallon of vaporised water to rupture anything, which I doubt.

 

[PWash]

80kbtu, except he says he runs small fires, 50% factor,
except stove is only 70% efficient, 70% factor,
except his stove transmits most of its heat to his house, 30% factor,
except coil heat exchanger is at best 20% effiecent, 20% factor,
except the pipe is connected outside the stove and experiences conductive and convective cooling, 80% factor.
so arithmetic them together and you get maybe 80kbtu * 1.7% = 1300 btu per hour into the water in his coil.

electrathon's modification is for a professional level person, dont try this at home.

 

[bholler]

electrathon's modification is for a professional level person, dont try this at home.

I totally agree it looks and sounds like the modification was done very well but it is not simple and carries lots of potential dangers.

 

[Squirrel]

so arithmetic them together and you get maybe 80kbtu * 1.7% = 1300 btu per hour into the water in his coil.

Which you could accomplish with a couple of 100w light bulbs?

 

[PWash]

Which you could accomplish with a couple of 100w light bulbs?

yep.

 

[Cynnergy]

Did you ever consider a thermosiphon system? We have a coil in our 1950's oil cookstove in our cabin that uses thermosiphon and it works like a charm, no electricity needed. The water tank is uninsulated (and no t&p valve, which I should get around to installing one of these days...). We've never had the tank come close to boiling either - it only gets to nicely warm, with occasionally a bit of cold needing to be added in the shower. The tank must have quite a lot of heat loss.

No worries about the insurance company for us - the cabin isn't insured [emoji4]. But the oil stove definitely doesn't get as hot as a wood stove. I am lucky to get the oven up to 400F on full blast.

 

[electrathon]

I agree, if people are not familiar/competition to with plumbing and construction I would not recommend they undertake this, or any installation. Wood stoves have the ability to be dangerous.

Did you ever consider a thermosiphon system? We have a coil in our 1950's oil cookstove in our cabin that uses thermosiphon and it works like a charm, no electricity needed. The water tank is uninsulated (and no t&p valve, which I should get around to installing one of these days...). We've never had the tank come close to boiling either - it only gets to nicely warm, with occasionally a bit of cold needing to be added in the shower. The tank must have quite a lot of heat loss.

No worries about the insurance company for us - the cabin isn't insured [emoji4]. But the oil stove definitely doesn't get as hot as a wood stove. I am lucky to get the oven up to 400F on full blast.

My tank is in the basement, the stove is on the first floor. It was not plausible to mount the tank higher or that would have been first choice.

 

[xman23]

Steam surly can be dangerous, if the issues are not controlled. So much so that Hartford insurance required a loop that was named after them. Be carefully guys.

http://www.google.com/#q=Hartford+loop

 

[TheRambler]

Steam surly can be dangerous, if the issues are not controlled. So much so that Hartford insurance required a loop that was named after them. Be carefully guys.

http://www.google.com/#q=Hartford loop

Just for clarity, its Hartford Steam Boiler, not the hartford insurance. Two different companies.

 

[Squirrel]

I'm in the process of trying a different approach.
After much searching I found a junked 20gal stainless pressure tank (from a well known soft drink company) and had a couple of pipe nipples fitted. This has been set up beside the stove in the feed to my electric water heater which is just behind the wall. Over the summer I spent a bit less heating water simply by allowing my well water to warm up to room temp. It will be interesting to see the results once the stove is running.
I know the tank would be more efficient if black but was told not to paint it and powder coating is expensive.

 

[xman23]

Just for clarity, its Hartford Steam Boiler, not the hartford insurance. Two different companies.

Stand corrected