Add-on heat help!!!

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.

Chris1309

New Member
Sep 5, 2017
9
ohio
Looking for additional heat options. Purchased this home last July 2016. We have 2100 sqft home built in 1976 with 5 zone baseboard propane boiler. Last winter we spent $2800 in propane. Looking for supplemental heat to decrease propane cost. Seems to be so many options however we don't want to spend a fortune!!! We have a fireplace that can take an insert. We have enough wood for 2 years however would like to stay away if possible. Would like options/opinions from this forum. Possible pellet stove, add-on coal stove??? Thanks in advance.
 
A wood burning insert or stand alone woodstove are the cheapest options. An indoor gasifaction wood boiler is what I did for the same reasons as you except I was only heating to 70 when here on weekends and 50-55 when away and seeing the same numbers as you in a slightly larger, newer home but in a much colder location.

The boiler option was not cheap.
 
Spend your first dollars on an Energy Audit, then your next dollars on energy upgrades. Buy a case of caulk and case of spray foam and have a blower door test performed. Then think about wood.
 
Spend your first dollars on an Energy Audit, then your next dollars on energy upgrades. Buy a case of caulk and case of spray foam and have a blower door test performed. Then think about wood.
Thanks, never heard of energy audit. Who does that? And same for blower test?
 
Welcome aboard, @Chris1309 !

I think what peakbagger is saying is that $2800 is a whole lot of LP for a 2100 sq ft house in Ohio. That much LP says that you must have a lot of opportunities for airsealing and insulation.

If you airseal/insulate one time to reduce heat load by x%, that's every year for a long time that you reduce your firewood labor by x%. Time and money well spent. Firewood can be fun, but only if it remains a hobby and not a master.

Welcome again!
 
Of course an energy audit will help a lot. How many months of heating are included in that cost?. Let's say you started late September all the way to April, possibly May. With December thru February the worse. I think is not bad if that the case. We can say average $300.00 a month?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris1309
How much was that LP, $ per gallon? Not sure about coal (that is usually a very localized thing), but pretty sure pellets wouldn't be that much cheaper than LP, if any, $ per BTU wise.

You say you have a fireplace that can take an insert, and 2 years of wood. That's where I would look first. But you need to verify the chimney would be good for it.

Then again I think you also mentioned would like to stay away if possible? Which doesn't leave you with many choices. As said above, tightening it up will pay dividends no matter how you heat. Then after that I would check out a more efficient LP boiler, maybe. They have likely improved a lot in 40 years. Don't think I would count on saving much money with pellets. Coal would be the wildcard - but it has cleanliness aspects too....
 
Thanks, never heard of energy audit. Who does that? And same for blower test?

Looks like you are in Ohio. I googled "energy audit ohio" and it looks like various utilities offer audits. I also find this site by Ohio government on self performed audit http://www.occ.ohio.gov/smartenergy/energyefficiency.shtml. In many states the utilities are required to have energy audit programs usually at a reduced price. In some cases they also will do free or reduced cost air sealing or insulation. Take look at the this link of Ohio specific energy programs and call around to see if you qualify. http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program?fromSir=0&state=OH

A blower door test is specific test with a calibrated fan and an adjustable rig to block up the door. It pulls air through the fan out of the house and by measuring the pressure drop across the opening they can calculate the leakage or air into the house via cracks and openings at a standard pressure drop. It sets a benchmark. The auditor then goes around with smoke gun that puffs smoke around potentially leakage points, if they see the smoke moving they know there is leak. They usually issue a report listing the biggest bang for the buck leak fixes. If they offer air sealing, they then go around and make the fixes which is usually caulking and foaming with some work around interior fixtures that go into the attic. Attic hatches are usually a big issue and "can type" lights in the ceilings are also a big one as they typically can not be directly insulated against. In both cases they may make a box out of foam board around the fixture and seal it with foam or make removable cover for the attic hatch. Bathroom and kitchen fans frequently are a source of leakage as the back draft dampers on these units are usually junk and over the years they can stick open. The other big source of energy loss is HVAC ducts, ideally they should be in the conditioned space but in most houses they run through unconditioned space. Frequently there is all sorts of air leakage at joints or poorly insulated duct runs.

Once done sealing the blower door test is done again and the reduction in air leakage can be proven. There are standard amounts of allowable air leakage that allow for adequate fresh air, make the building too tight and you may need to install a makeup air system with a heat exchanger. They also may notice areas of inadequate insulation and poor windows but rarely does it make sense to change out a window for energy savings. Generally most houses attics dont have enough insulation so I would guess that it may be time to add some cellulose over the rafters.

A poor mans blowers door test is go around on a cold day with a sponge and keep one hand damp while passing it by the exterior walls of the house. You will feel the drafts and can fix the one you can find. A bit more sophisticated is get a large cardboard box and a cheap fan and seal up a window so that the fan is sucking air out of the house then go around an look for leaks using the damp sponge approach. You really cant quantify the difference without a draft gauge but you will be amazed at home many leaks you will find.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Highbeam
Looks like you are in Ohio. I googled "energy audit ohio" and it looks like various utilities offer audits. I also find this site by Ohio government on self performed audit http://www.occ.ohio.gov/smartenergy/energyefficiency.shtml. In many states the utilities are required to have energy audit programs usually at a reduced price. In some cases they also will do free or reduced cost air sealing or insulation. Take look at the this link of Ohio specific energy programs and call around to see if you qualify. http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program?fromSir=0&state=OH

A blower door test is specific test with a calibrated fan and an adjustable rig to block up the door. It pulls air through the fan out of the house and by measuring the pressure drop across the opening they can calculate the leakage or air into the house via cracks and openings at a standard pressure drop. It sets a benchmark. The auditor then goes around with smoke gun that puffs smoke around potentially leakage points, if they see the smoke moving they know there is leak. They usually issue a report listing the biggest bang for the buck leak fixes. If they offer air sealing, they then go around and make the fixes which is usually caulking and foaming with some work around interior fixtures that go into the attic. Attic hatches are usually a big issue and "can type" lights in the ceilings are also a big one as they typically can not be directly insulated against. In both cases they may make a box out of foam board around the fixture and seal it with foam or make removable cover for the attic hatch. Bathroom and kitchen fans frequently are a source of leakage as the back draft dampers on these units are usually junk and over the years they can stick open. The other big source of energy loss is HVAC ducts, ideally they should be in the conditioned space but in most houses they run through unconditioned space. Frequently there is all sorts of air leakage at joints or poorly insulated duct runs.

Once done sealing the blower door test is done again and the reduction in air leakage can be proven. There are standard amounts of allowable air leakage that allow for adequate fresh air, make the building too tight and you may need to install a makeup air system with a heat exchanger. They also may notice areas of inadequate insulation and poor windows but rarely does it make sense to change out a window for energy savings. Generally most houses attics dont have enough insulation so I would guess that it may be time to add some cellulose over the rafters.

A poor mans blowers door test is go around on a cold day with a sponge and keep one hand damp while passing it by the exterior walls of the house. You will feel the drafts and can fix the one you can find. A bit more sophisticated is get a large cardboard box and a cheap fan and seal up a window so that the fan is sucking air out of the house then go around an look for leaks using the damp sponge approach. You really cant quantify the difference without a draft gauge but you will be amazed at home many leaks you will find.
Thanks for your time and information. I really appreciate it.
 
Looks like you are in Ohio. I googled "energy audit ohio" and it looks like various utilities offer audits. I also find this site by Ohio government on self performed audit http://www.occ.ohio.gov/smartenergy/energyefficiency.shtml. In many states the utilities are required to have energy audit programs usually at a reduced price. In some cases they also will do free or reduced cost air sealing or insulation. Take look at the this link of Ohio specific energy programs and call around to see if you qualify. http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program?fromSir=0&state=OH

A blower door test is specific test with a calibrated fan and an adjustable rig to block up the door. It pulls air through the fan out of the house and by measuring the pressure drop across the opening they can calculate the leakage or air into the house via cracks and openings at a standard pressure drop. It sets a benchmark. The auditor then goes around with smoke gun that puffs smoke around potentially leakage points, if they see the smoke moving they know there is leak. They usually issue a report listing the biggest bang for the buck leak fixes. If they offer air sealing, they then go around and make the fixes which is usually caulking and foaming with some work around interior fixtures that go into the attic. Attic hatches are usually a big issue and "can type" lights in the ceilings are also a big one as they typically can not be directly insulated against. In both cases they may make a box out of foam board around the fixture and seal it with foam or make removable cover for the attic hatch. Bathroom and kitchen fans frequently are a source of leakage as the back draft dampers on these units are usually junk and over the years they can stick open. The other big source of energy loss is HVAC ducts, ideally they should be in the conditioned space but in most houses they run through unconditioned space. Frequently there is all sorts of air leakage at joints or poorly insulated duct runs.

Once done sealing the blower door test is done again and the reduction in air leakage can be proven. There are standard amounts of allowable air leakage that allow for adequate fresh air, make the building too tight and you may need to install a makeup air system with a heat exchanger. They also may notice areas of inadequate insulation and poor windows but rarely does it make sense to change out a window for energy savings. Generally most houses attics dont have enough insulation so I would guess that it may be time to add some cellulose over the rafters.

A poor mans blowers door test is go around on a cold day with a sponge and keep one hand damp while passing it by the exterior walls of the house. You will feel the drafts and can fix the one you can find. A bit more sophisticated is get a large cardboard box and a cheap fan and seal up a window so that the fan is sucking air out of the house then go around an look for leaks using the damp sponge approach. You really cant quantify the difference without a draft gauge but you will be amazed at home many leaks you will find.

I know a few guys who hunt with thermal optics on their rifles or use them for spotting animals at night. if I were to wait for a cold day and walked around my house with a thermal spotter would that effectively be the same thing? I remember hearing about energy audits years ago and thought one of them was a similar idea, the person had some type of thermal spotter.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know a few guys who hunt with thermal optics on their rifles or use them for spotting animals at night. if I were to wait for a cold day and walked around my house with a thermal spotter would that effectively be the same thing?
Mmm...kinda, sorta, not really. Might just shoot a hole in the wall and have a new air leak! ;lol
You very well could find some areas that need work that way...wouldn't hurt to try. The thermal imaging cameras that these guys use are much more sophisticated though...and they have the calibrated blower pulling a negative pressure on the house too...suppose one could rig up a rednek blower door...
I have a cheap thermal imaging camera...it leaves a lot to be desired in definition and clarity compared to the big $ models...like the ones the fire departments use now...those are SWEET!
Try it and let us know how it works out for ya.
 
Mmm...kinda, sorta, not really. Might just shoot a hole in the wall and have a new air leak! ;lol
You very well could find some areas that need work that way...wouldn't hurt to try. The thermal imaging cameras that these guys use are much more sophisticated though...and they have the calibrated blower pulling a negative pressure on the house too...suppose one could rig up a rednek blower door...
I have a cheap thermal imaging camera...it leaves a lot to be desired in definition and clarity compared to the big $ models...like the ones the fire departments use now...those are SWEET!
Try it and let us know how it works out for ya.

one guy is a Trijion rep so the thermal he uses the most has an MSRP of $7,000 so it's up there, he does black/white and also color so you can see heat dispersion as well. I figured i'll get the house really hot on a cold day then walk around the outside and see where heat seeps out of. my house also has an oldschool cooling system, there is a 4ft fan built into the ceiling at the top of the stars that sucks house air into the ridge-vent/attic area and out the vents on each side so I could pull a pretty good vacuum I bet. then scan the walls and windows from the inside.
 
one guy is a Trijion rep so the thermal he uses the most has an MSRP of $7,000 so it's up there, he does black/white and also color so you can see heat dispersion as well. I figured i'll get the house really hot on a cold day then walk around the outside and see where heat seeps out of. my house also has an oldschool cooling system, there is a 4ft fan built into the ceiling at the top of the stars that sucks house air into the ridge-vent/attic area and out the vents on each side so I could pull a pretty good vacuum I bet. then scan the walls and windows from the inside.
Ooooooh...whole house fan...yeah, those will suck the paint off the walls! If you have access to that nice of a camera...go for it!
 
Generally the thermal cam is looking for gaps in insulation. They are important but far less important then getting the air leaks taken care of. The whole house fan will definitely work as a blower door.