Air to Water Heat Pump - US company

[peakbagger]

I was a bit surprised when I saw that TACO is throwing their hat in the ring. Looks like a 3.5 ton unit rated down to -7F. Looks like they are relabeling a German Unit so wonder what sort of domestic content. Of course, pricing is the big question. Interesting how they turn the low output temp into a benefit.

(broken link removed to https://www.tacocomfort.com/documents/FileLibrary/System-M_Contractor_Catalog_800-001.pdf)

 

[EbS-P]

Low output temp, 44k btus, variable speed compressor and domestic hot water and AC.

I’m sold now just need to build a house to put it in

 

[begreen]

Looks like they are relabeling a German Unit so wonder what sort of domestic content.

Maybe they have Taco pumps in the indoor hydrobox instead of Grundfos?

 

[semipro]

Taco was/is a leading producer of valves used in ground-source HP systems. They worked flawlessly in our system for many years.

 

[peakbagger]

Like it or not EU countries and Japan has been at the forefront on high efficiency home heating size units for decades. They also have been building either higher efficiency buildings (EU states) or smaller dwelling units (Japan) Look at the mini split market, its all Japanese developed tech that is now being copied by third world manufacturers. There are several of the Euro brands that make super energy efficient heating that are unknown in the US. US manufactures still build legacy heat pumps to support installations they have sold for decades and there are some geothermal manufacturers nibbling at the air to water market but not a big roll out yet. The problem is in most cases these do not retrofit well into a typical US inefficient ducted system. The temps are lower than standard heat sources and that means more warm air has to move around the house and far less tolerant of leaky duct running through unconditioned spaces. If you look at John Siegnethaler's column's, they almost all are based on low temp radiant emitters or properly designed radiant floor wall or ceiling systems that use very low supply temps. These cost money to install and not easy to retrofit. He uses local air terminal units for cooling, so instead of ducts he is using insulated cold water lines to move the cooling around.

Ideally TACO does the hydronic end of the unit inside the house and the German (or Japanese) equipment supplies it hot or cold water from the outdoor unit. BTW a typical northeastern home will have a 100,000 btu boiler as a base heating unit, the spec sheet shows 17,880 btus at 5 degree F. They have a backup resistive element on the buffer tank but that is not a lot of heat for a typical home in cold weather. IMO better have a backup for an area with consistently lower winter temps. Its good fit for Passive Homes and Zero Net energy that can ride through a cold spell but even in my fairly tight 30 year old home I would need a backup. Someone in in CT or south it may be great fit.

 

[EbS-P]

Like it or not EU countries and Japan has been at the forefront on high efficiency home heating size units for decades. They also have been building either higher efficiency buildings (EU states) or smaller dwelling units (Japan) Look at the mini split market, its all Japanese developed tech that is now being copied by third world manufacturers. There are several of the Euro brands that make super energy efficient heating that are unknown in the US. US manufactures still build legacy heat pumps to support installations they have sold for decades and there are some geothermal manufacturers nibbling at the air to water market but not a big roll out yet. The problem is in most cases these do not retrofit well into a typical US inefficient ducted system. The temps are lower than standard heat sources and that means more warm air has to move around the house and far less tolerant of leaky duct running through unconditioned spaces. If you look at John Siegnethaler's column's, they almost all are based on low temp radiant emitters or properly designed radiant floor wall or ceiling systems that use very low supply temps. These cost money to install and not easy to retrofit. He uses local air terminal units for cooling, so instead of ducts he is using insulated cold water lines to move the cooling around.

Ideally TACO does the hydronic end of the unit inside the house and the German (or Japanese) equipment supplies it hot or cold water from the outdoor unit. BTW a typical northeastern home will have a 100,000 btu boiler as a base heating unit, the spec sheet shows 17,880 btus at 5 degree F. They have a backup resistive element on the buffer tank but that is not a lot of heat for a typical home in cold weather. IMO better have a backup for an area with consistently lower winter temps. Its good fit for Passive Homes and Zero Net energy that can ride through a cold spell but even in my fairly tight 30 year old home I would need a backup. Someone in in CT or south it may be great fit.


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How do they get the 3.5 ton capacity. I agree it’s not well sized to big American houses

 

[peakbagger]

I must admit I didnt go through the specs until my second posting

 

[EbS-P]

I must admit I didnt go through the specs until my second posting

It’s right on the first page 44kbtus. 3.5 tons. But…. You must score down to find that to get those numbers you need the buffer tank and the 6kw heater running.

So let’s cannot what it is 2.5 ton spring summer fall and 1.74 ton winter heater. Yeah that won’t even cut it here. Take my name off the list.

 

[Highbeam]

It’s right on the first page 44kbtus. 3.5 tons. But…. You must score down to find that to get those numbers you need the buffer tank and the 6kw heater running.

So let’s cannot what it is 2.5 ton spring summer fall and 1.74 ton winter heater. Yeah that won’t even cut it here. Take my name off the list.

Perfect for the radiant slab in my shop!

I'll take one for testing. SCaling the thing up or down is easy once somebody in NA gets going.

Any reason you couldn't just put two of them in if one isn't enough? We see that a lot with heat pumps.

 

[peakbagger]

It should not be an issue to put in two, but I expect the cost will be steep and the buffer tank will need to be upsized..

 

[EbS-P]

Perfect for the radiant slab in my shop!

I'll take one for testing. SCaling the thing up or down is easy once somebody in NA gets going.

Any reason you couldn't just put two of them in if one isn't enough? We see that a lot with heat pumps.

I imagine it’s not a unique compressor. No reason an inverter variable speed scroll compressor can’t be 5 tons. Yes heat exchangers need to be larger but I’m not sure scaling the buffer tank is absolutely necessary. It’s an efficiency advantage for sure.

 

[peakbagger]

I think if John Siegenthaler had his way, the outdoor units (effectively the heating and cooling "engine") would be supplied by one company and he would take responsibility for the balance of system design. The problem is a one-off design for a building can be optimized to a specific building but once you pay his consulting fee and then a technician to buy small quantities of components, assemble them on site and them commission them its and time-consuming process. The far faster and quicker approach is to buy a standardized preassembled indoor unit with a lot of user selectable options and that is what Taco and other suppliers are selling. Every bit of value they can add means a bigger market and profit.

Its logical that Taco starts out with one outdoor unit and then once they prove there is a market that they expand the line to larger and smaller units. The challenge will be if the Germans feel that the US market is big enough to offer units sizes that may be less popular in Europe. Note that at least one of the US geothermal HVAC manufacturers is pursuing the same market (whose name I cannot remember). There most likely will be incentives for US sourcing of equipment so Taco has to make sure that they have enough domestic content to get those incentives and that may mean they have to bundle the German sourced components in with the domestic supplied components.

There is already a federal goal to switch US domestic heating to renewables (predominantly electric heat pump tech). This goal is not just for new housing, this includes existing housing and if that goal is made into law with domestic sourcing incentives, then the market for many sizes of these units will explode. Already, some municipalities (Boston) are considering a ban on fossil space heating in new buildings. Someone with a 2000 gallon of oil or the equivalent natural gas demand a year home is pretty well going to have to burn a lot of wood or do a major retrofit to be able to afford to live there. My guess is older housing stock will drop in value and probably shift to the rental market while those with the resources will probably shift to new energy efficient housing. One of the dirty secrets of the Zero Energy and Passive home markets is that with the exception of usually heavily subsidized "affordable homes" the first cost of these super efficient homes is steep. Rarely do the long term energy savings cover the higher up front costs especially with the return to high interest rates Most of the buyers seem to near retirement folks cashing out of a larger home or investments that decide to take their large profit on the old home into paying an upfront premium for a long term home with low long term costs. Since I plan to be working up new home designs at some point soon its going to be interesting to model the various upfront and long term costs.