Another Dieselgate...

[woodgeek]

This time in a million RAM pickups. Model year 2013 to present.

Cummins Fined $1.67 Billion Over Diesel Defeat Devices In Ram Pickup Trucks - CleanTechnica

Engine manufacturer Cummins Inc. today disclosed that it has reached an agreement in principle with the United States and State of California to pay a $1.675 billion penalty to settle claims that it violated the Clean Air Act by installing emissions defeat devices on hundreds of thousands of...

cleantechnica.com

Ofc, the VW version of this story was not the first, nor would it be the last?

I had a colleague with a VW TDI car subject to the recall/fix. She was p@ssed (about the fix).

Anyone here have an affected RAM? Looking for a buyout?

 

[woodgeek]

And to stir the pot a bit...

While it would be NUTS to ban gasoline ICE vehicles in the next decade (at least), what is the justification for not banning Diesel powered light vehicles in 2025? It seems there are plenty of alternatives, and there are sound cases to be made that swapping Diesel for Gasoline would prevent LOTS of premature deaths.

 

[peakbagger]

This time in a million RAM pickups. Model year 2013 to present.

Cummins Fined $1.67 Billion Over Diesel Defeat Devices In Ram Pickup Trucks - CleanTechnica

Engine manufacturer Cummins Inc. today disclosed that it has reached an agreement in principle with the United States and State of California to pay a $1.675 billion penalty to settle claims that it violated the Clean Air Act by installing emissions defeat devices on hundreds of thousands of...

cleantechnica.com

Ofc, the VW version of this story was not the first, nor would it be the last?

I had a colleague with a VW TDI car subject to the recall/fix. She was p@ssed (about the fix).

Anyone here have an affected RAM? Looking for a buyout?

I think it was pretty well known that the Cummings Diesels were not legit and plenty of shops willing to "tune them up"

 

[bholler]

I think it was pretty well known that the Cummings Diesels were not legit and plenty of shops willing to "tune them up"

No it wasn't well known that they were willfully violating federal laws. The tuners yes absolutely

 

[EbS-P]

Cummings annual net income is about 2.5 billion the penalty a significant portion of income. Not much impact on stock price unless it’s already been accounted for

V

 

[weee123]

And to stir the pot a bit...

While it would be NUTS to ban gasoline ICE vehicles in the next decade (at least), what is the justification for not banning Diesel powered light vehicles in 2025? It seems there are plenty of alternatives, and there are sound cases to be made that swapping Diesel for Gasoline would prevent LOTS of premature deaths.

I could see banning diesel cars but banning diesel trucks isn’t feasible. Gasoline doesn’t come close to the towing power of diesel. It’s not even close.

 

[woodgeek]

I could see banning diesel cars but banning diesel trucks isn’t feasible. Gasoline doesn’t come close to the towing power of diesel. It’s not even close.

Excuse my ignorance, but I get that Diesels are cheaper per hp at high hp (especially naturally aspirated), and have better low end torque. But if that is all there is, then it seems that low end torque can be made up with a better transmission, and the cost per hp factor may be negligible. Maybe we need gasoline V12s? Or turbo injection?

 

[bholler]

I could see banning diesel cars but banning diesel trucks isn’t feasible. Gasoline doesn’t come close to the towing power of diesel. It’s not even close.

Yes especially when companies are cheating the emissions tests on them.

 

[EbS-P]

We need a carbon/pollution tax

 

[weee123]

Excuse my ignorance, but I get that Diesels are cheaper per hp at high hp (especially naturally aspirated), and have better low end torque. But if that is all there is, then it seems that low end torque can be made up with a better transmission, and the cost per hp factor may be negligible. Maybe we need gasoline V12s? Or turbo injection?

Those have already been tried with the monstrous big block iron V8’s of the past which got maybe 6-7mpg and with modern V10’s which were only an option for people who didn’t want the high expense of the diesel. For anyone who needs to do any real towing (14k+) diesel is a must. Gas options “can” do it but they really aren’t happy doing it and you can kiss any sort of fuel economy goodbye.

Gasoline simply can’t compete with diesel when it comes to torque. The big Ford gas engine in the superdutys the 7.3 godzilla makes 475 ftlb. Compare that to the 6.7 powerstroke making 1050 ftlb and the HO version of it making 1200 ftlb.

Gasoline can’t ever hope to produce that much in a factory setting. Only race engines running very high octane fuel getting less than 10mpgs can do that and obviously that’s not feasible.

 

[weee123]

Yes especially when companies are cheating the emissions tests on them.

Ford doesn’t cheat on them. Read my response above on why gasoline doesn’t compare to diesel when it comes to real work applications. They operate completely different from gas vehicles and naturally produce more torque due to the design of them.

Diesels are also far more reliable than gas engines.

 

[woodgeek]

Ford doesn’t cheat on them. Read my response above on why gasoline doesn’t compare to diesel when it comes to real work applications. They operate completely different from gas vehicles and naturally produce more torque due to the design of them.

Diesels are also far more reliable than gas engines.

Any ideas about how to prevent cheating (and tuning) in the future in private light vehicles with diesel engines? Random road inspections and fines? Electronic minders?

Assuming that Ford is NOT cheating, they should be happy to see their competitors getting cracked down on, no?

 

[bholler]

Ford doesn’t cheat on them. Read my response above on why gasoline doesn’t compare to diesel when it comes to real work applications. They operate completely different from gas vehicles and naturally produce more torque due to the design of them.

Diesels are also far more reliable than gas engines.

Yes I know how diesels work. And maybe ford does maybe they dont. Vw claimed they didn't. Cummins did as well.

BTW you know what destroys both gas and diesel on torque and reliability? Electric

 

[weee123]

BTW you know what destroys both gas and diesel on torque and reliability? Electric

Indeed it does. The main problem with it currently is the range when under load towing. It significantly reduces the range to almost unusable especially for someone who needs to tow long distance.

A Ford lightning towing just 7200lbs has a range of just 90 miles. That is abysmal. There’s a reason why superdutys/hd light trucks don’t come with an electric option. Because the battery range just isn’t there yet. I personally can’t wait for it to get there though.

 

[weee123]

Any ideas about how to prevent cheating (and tuning) in the future in private light vehicles with diesel engines? Random road inspections and fines? Electronic minders?

Assuming that Ford is NOT cheating, they should be happy to see their competitors getting cracked down on, no?

As long as there have been vehicles to purchase there have been people modifying and tuning them to get more performance out of them. That will never change. I’m sure someone will figure out how to tune an electric vehicle to get even more performance out of it as well.

As to the random road inspections and fines, the heavy trucking industry already has those.

Yes I’m sure Ford is very happy about their competition getting caught cheating.

 

[bholler]

Indeed it does. The main problem with it currently is the range when under load towing. It significantly reduces the range to almost unusable especially for someone who needs to tow long distance.

A Ford lightning towing just 7200lbs has a range of just 90 miles. That is abysmal. There’s a reason why superdutys/hd light trucks don’t come with an electric option. Because the battery range just isn’t there yet. I personally can’t wait for it to get there though.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen hybrid options on heavy trucks. They have basically been doing that with locomotives for a really long time

 

[weee123]

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen hybrid options on heavy trucks. They have basically been doing that with locomotives for a really long time

Well the thing with them is the diesel engine is running all the time. It’s basically a diesel generator powering electric motors whereas hybrids on passenger cars can run solely on electric.

That actually would be an interesting concept to see on a heavy truck application. Would probably greatly increase towing ability as well as efficiency.

 

[bholler]

Well the thing with them is the diesel engine is running all the time. It’s basically a diesel generator powering electric motors whereas hybrids on passenger cars can run solely on electric.

That actually would be an interesting concept to see on a heavy truck application. Would probably greatly increase towing ability as well as efficiency.

Yes that is how locomotives work but they require much more power than trucks. A truck could most likely be powered by a much smaller generator

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think weight is the main reason we don’t see electric hauling. Otherwise, the torque of electric motors would be incredible! If a vehicle van only weigh/haul so much, the more weight that is taken up by the battery, the lower the amount you can tow.

Now, if you could string overhead lines that a tractor could run on, there’d be no stopping them as you could have a battery only large enough to get the rig to the road lines.

 

[peakbagger]

The cog railroad that goes up Mt Washington is now mostly powered by Diesel electric driven locomotives. They put a small percentage of biodiesel in with the diesel to make it sound green. They keep a couple of old coal fired steam engines that they run during non peaks hours. They can run several diesel trips for one steam trip. Its basically a diesel generator hidden in a box made to sort of look like a old fashioned locomotive. They sound just like diesel generator. They designed them themselves and assemble the locomotives themselves in a high tech shop at the base of the mountain. For those not familiar with the cog railroad, its too steep for conventional locomotives so the cog track has a center rack that runs top to bottom which meshes with a cogged gear on the locomotive. Definitely a need for lots of torque going up and braking coming down.

BTW Pepsi claims that their trial with the Tesla tractor trailer rigs is going very well. One of the routes they do starts out at the coast and then runs up into the sierras and then down again. They regenerate a lot of the power they use to head up coming back down.

EVs can be set up to generate lots of torque almost at zero RPM, it just comes down to there is limited power capacity in the battery, its a choice between range and load hauling. Bump up the storage density of the batteries and pay the long term weight penalty for bigger drivetrain components to handle the torque and towing will be less of an issue.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Is the cog system what they use at the top of roller coasters?

 

[peakbagger]

No really sure on what they use for roller coasters, here is some info https://www.asce.org/about-civil-en...storic-landmarks/mount-washington-cog-railway

 

[bholler]

No really sure on what they use for roller coasters, here is some info https://www.asce.org/about-civil-en...storic-landmarks/mount-washington-cog-railway

Rollercoaster use chains. Because the cars in coasters are not powered

 

[DBoon]

I think it was pretty well known that the Cummings Diesels were not legit and plenty of shops willing to "tune them up"

As someone who does quite a bit of road cycling, I can tell you that it was quite obvious when a diesel pickup truck passed and wasn't really meeting the emissions requirements. And that's not to say that a diesel that met the regulations was that clean either. I am not sure that "light trucks" had to meet the same emission requirements as passenger vehicles, but if they do, I would say that every pickup truck manufacturer is cheating. I could never smell a VW diesel when it passed me.

 

[Eman85]

I drove tractor trailer for years, both pre computer controlled diesels and post DEF catalytic controlled diesels. On the older trucks if it was parked for the weekend when I started it there would be a dusting of soot come out of the stacks. It got to where on the new trucks we didn't even have stacks just low road exhaust even on sleeper cabs. You could be hooking up with the truck running and not even smell the diesel fumes. Of course, most hated the DEF and the particulate filters. The newer diesel pickups can use the same technology but if you look at used truck ads or diesel shop ads they all have the delete done or shops offer the delete service. No emission checks or state inspections so they do what they want. Plus "rolling coal" is the cool thing to do when Granny buys you a diesel pickup and you want to impress your buddies.