Another Harman thread - P61A or P 68 for 2700SF (2500SF on 1st floor)?

[Bontchimuz]

Greetings! Loooooong time reader, first time poster. Longer time wood stove burner. I am finally making the switch at age 39. I have no idea what I am doing with pellet stoves except what I have read here and there, but zero experience. I have spoken to 5 dealers (fun) and actually informative for the most part.

I know, I know....another Harma(o)n thread....ho hum....anyways, thanks ahead of time.

I want to error on the bigger side if anything out of pure fear my wife will not be warm enough with a say Piazzetta SC Sabrina (my top choice personally). As she and I are both decades used to heating with wood.

I am curious of anyones experience with especially the P61A as I have heard a ton about the P68 and know it is an absolute workhorse.

What should I get in your guys uber experienced opinions?

Thanks again.

-Brian

 

[jzm2cc]

Both are great stoves no doubt. But you are used to a high BTU wood stove heat, plus lots of sf to heat. Go big or go home (P68), plus it's only another $300 verses the P61.

 

[bogieb]

P61a here - it is a workhorse, with a big ash can. If you get the hopper extension you can go a couple of days between fillings (which also depends on tightness of your house and weather conditions).

Love the P61a, but for a 2700 sq/ft house, as Jzm2cc says, go big or go home. Get more than you think you need. You can throttle them back and/or idle them, but can't make them produce more heat than they are designed to output (at least not safely).

OR if you have the room, clearance etc, you can go with 2 stoves - on opposite sides of the house. That would maintain the temp more evenly throughout the house. Plus, if you have an issue where 1 stove is down, you can crank the other one up to a higher setting and use it in conjunction with your conventional system. In that case, 2 smaller stoves would do the trick and I would think you could use P43's. And, perhaps you can get one new and one used? Get the new one installed and get up to speed on it (the installer should be able to show you all you need to know about cleaning and maintenance), then get a used one and install it yourself.

Just something to chew on.

 

[Bontchimuz]

Nice and fellow NH stove fanboi. Thats an interesting idea I had not considered is 2 smaller/medium stoves.

Regardless, I agree that I need to error on the side of bigger. I always had more wood stove than I needed and it paid off huge each winter.

I have also been looking at used P61's...cant find any P68's yet. Lots to research and I love this stuff. Cant wait to finally get one and fire her up

 

[bogieb]

PS - FWIIW; When I first set out to get a pellet stove, I talked to several dealers and mentioned to them that I wasn't sure if one big stove would do it, or if I should go with 2 smaller stoves. None of them led me the 2 stove route - but look in my signature to see where I am at now.

The big P61a SHOULD heat my 1600 sq/ft place, but I could not get the convections to work out between the basement install and the main floor, so ended up with two stoves anyway. if I had it to do over again, I would have a P43 in the basement too. If you are only heating 1 floor, that probably won't be such an issue. But be aware you will probably end up with a temperature gradient of some sort (some experience more, some less) if you go with just one stove - just another 2 cents worth.

 

[bogieb]

Nice and fellow NH stove fanGAL. Thats an interesting idea I had not considered is 2 smaller/medium stoves.

Regardless, I agree that I need to error on the side of bigger. I always had more wood stove than I needed and it paid off huge each winter.

I have also been looking at used P61's...cant find any P68's yet. Lots to research and I love this stuff. Cant wait to finally get one and fire her up

There - fixed it for you

 

[alternativeheat]

You're saying 2700 sq ft first floor but not where you are heating it from or if there will be warmed air lost to a second floor. So let me ask where the stove will be located ?

Two stoves are always more even heating than one, regardless of the fuel type. Did your wood stove have convection blowers on it though ? Many do not and thus is a difference that surprises a lot of people coming from wood to pellets. It's a bit different heat from totally radiant heat of the average wood stove, less BTU but it gets around so to speak.

 

[Bontchimuz]

Its actually 2755 SF total. 2425 SF is the first floor.
Our kitchen is the biggest room in house and centrally located along the back center of house. We are putting the pellet stove in that room along back wall corner facing the room and blowing into kitchen, entry foyer and dining room and garage entry hallway/first floor bathroom. Our 2 big tv rooms are along the left side of house and they hold heat great and already have 2 gas fireplaces we dont like as they are ventless (came with the house). Im sure everyone is like wtf is he talking about lol.

If we use 1 stove thats the plan. Im sure trickle heat will go into entry foyer up the stairs and if it does thats fine but we sleep cold so worry if it doesnt. If the heat does become issue upstairs too much we can close all doors and lower pellet settings I'd wager. The stove will be far away from 2nd floor stairs for better or worse. In the kitchen is a ceiling fan we plan on using to help spread the heat if needed and each room on first floor has either pocket doors or regular doors for most part.

Our wood stoves Ive had for the last 30 years all never had any type of fans/blowers. All just radiant heating monsters that kept certain area really warm and other lacking but definitely trickled upstairs and certain corners strangely enough. I always kind of liked that as I tend to overheat and knew exactly what area of house to go "cool down" in.

It's a big investment for us or anyone I imagine. Like serious money for these Harman stoves, but we love any type of fire and I always enjoyed my friends pellet stoves in the past. I have found out our local dealers are doing a 10% off Harmans starting 9/23 so while its nothing crazy...it adds up when you spend 4k on a pellet stove...

Was thinking of saving money and buying used off craigslist but might just bite the bullet and go new for warranty, help, close dealer to depend on etc.

If we go with 2 stoves I will take BogieB advice and buy one new and one used.

I already miss my Hearthstone Equinox wood stove....that thing was an absolute monster.....even if a dirty one

 

[alternativeheat]

Its actually 2755 SF total. 2425 SF is the first floor.
Our kitchen is the biggest room in house and centrally located along the back center of house. We are putting the pellet stove in that room along back wall corner facing the room and blowing into kitchen, entry foyer and dining room and garage entry hallway/first floor bathroom. Our 2 big tv rooms are along the left side of house and they hold heat great and already have 2 gas fireplaces we dont like as they are ventless (came with the house). Im sure everyone is like wtf is he talking about lol.

If we use 1 stove thats the plan. Im sure trickle heat will go into entry foyer up the stairs and if it does thats fine but we sleep cold so worry if it doesnt. If the heat does become issue upstairs too much we can close all doors and lower pellet settings I'd wager. The stove will be far away from 2nd floor stairs for better or worse. In the kitchen is a ceiling fan we plan on using to help spread the heat if needed and each room on first floor has either pocket doors or regular doors for most part.

Our wood stoves Ive had for the last 30 years all never had any type of fans/blowers. All just radiant heating monsters that kept certain area really warm and other lacking but definitely trickled upstairs and certain corners strangely enough. I always kind of liked that as I tend to overheat and knew exactly what area of house to go "cool down" in.

It's a big investment for us or anyone I imagine. Like serious money for these Harman stoves, but we love any type of fire and I always enjoyed my friends pellet stoves in the past. I have found out our local dealers are doing a 10% off Harmans starting 9/23 so while its nothing crazy...it adds up when you spend 4k on a pellet stove...

Was thinking of saving money and buying used off craigslist but might just bite the bullet and go new for warranty, help, close dealer to depend on etc.

If we go with 2 stoves I will take BogieB advice and buy one new and one used.

I already miss my Hearthstone Equinox wood stove....that thing was an absolute monster.....even if a dirty one

Looking at it from a survivalists view point, a wood stove wins hands down. If some magnetic pulse device goes off or poles change on earth and power is out and no engines run, banks close up and you have to survive on your instincts for the next 20 years, you can always cut and split wood by hand and make heat with wood where the pellet stove won't run for the full 20 years. Just sayin.

Now assuming none of that happens, then a pellet stove is more convenient. I could go on and on about heating with pellets vs any other way ( we used coal here for decades, wood before that) but bottom line I've never even owned a 2700+ sq ft home LOL ! And the house I have is no where near as tight as modern construction, nor insulated as well but smaller than that and we use a P61 just fine . It actually does a better job of getting more of the outer reaches heated and upstairs heated than the coal stove ever did. Wood ? Well we had a chimney fire second year in or so, I converted the stove to coal and we burned it without incident for more than 30 years. The wife will never have another wood stove in the house ( she says). She might be only 5'2" but she digs her heals in harder than any mule on earth. Well, the pellet stove does great anyway.
.

 

[Tonyray]

Heating 1600 Sq 2 story house..Poorly insulated 90 yr old..
2nd floor [with a ceiling fan moving clockwise on low speed] will get it to 67 degrees at night, perfect sleeping enviriornment.
downstairs mid 70's with Blower fan never past midway... Don't want to melt walls.. P61A.with OAK. We burn 24/7 when needed.

 

[alternativeheat]

Thats about my experience as well ( you and and I have discussed this and compared notes many times Tony). Anyway, heating just under 1800 sq ft of a not so tight old Cape. We have heard many times how people with 2700 sq ft heat with a single pellet stove in new construction and tight insulation. It makes a huge difference but I will never experience that in this house. So Tony and I went a little over kill on stove selection. In my case now with oil low I will mix pellet heat and oil heat in the 0 degree nights and take the curse off fuel consumption of both sources. But the stove has done it on it's own too . Do understand that a P61 is capable of burning near 6 bags of pellets in 24 hours if it had too and I like to not go over 2 or 2-1/2. But my dining room, next room over from the stove is between 73 and 74 degrees all winter long, day and night just about any weather. It's just a matter of pellet consumption variations. I can watch the flames go up and lick off the heat exchanger and I know it's getting cold out without changing a thing, dump in another bag of pellets. Yep thats how a Harman works, at least in the auto modes , can't speak for other brands.

 

[Bontchimuz]

This is GREAT info. I love hearing the exact models and square footage you guys/gals have.

Strangely enough I researched our house (just moved in 7 months ago) and while the real estate listing sheet said more around 2700sf...our town info says more around 2400sf. Not that it will affect our decision but we are waivering on what model still.

@alternativeheat what is the Square footage of your house?

Im seeing you all are living in 1500-1800sf homes and using the P61 which says up to 3500sf. So you all run it on "medium type settings"?

I imagine the difference between P61a and P68 is not much except the roughly $300 dollars to buy

 

[alternativeheat]

Bontimuz, it's going to matter a whole lot how tight your house is. Assuming pretty efficiently tight and decent insulation a P61 should heat 2400 sq ft very well. If it's loose then maybe not , nor will any one stove do it efficiently but that would have included your old wood stove too.

Yes at 1800 sq feet our P61 sees a fair amount of low and moderate burn time but it gets cranked up too on those aftermath storm nights as the temp drops into the deep freeze so typical in the NE area after a snow storm. A tight 2400 sq foot house is probably more efficient than my old 1800 sq foot cape, we have drafts and we have bad insulation in the walls and non under the main floor floors to the basement . You may not be able to gauge how that corresponds to your own situation, I don't know but if you have a tight 2400sq foot house it's probably easier to heat than this house. A P43 would do this house, we went with a P61 for the added assurance and it gets a fair work out in sub 0 weather with high winds if let the stove go all on it's own.. However, with oil prices lower now I let that take over and fill in with the stove in those conditions but I don't have to, it's just that oil heat here costs about the same as pellets right now so why burn more pellets and lug the bags etc. in that extreme cold. If I put the stove on constant burn around level 4 or so, the heat will only come on about 4 times in 24 hours anyway and it keeps my pellet consumption even, plus the oil heat is already on to heat our 500 sq ft apartment we rent out, it might as well circulate for us periodically in that extreme cold . We did the same thing with coal but the pellet stove is way more self sufficient than coal ever was.

A P68 puts out about 400 sq ft worth more BTU than a P61, it's a couple of inches taller and it has a slightly larger burner in it. On low and moderate burn you won't notice a difference, only when it cranks up on a high burn are you going to feel it. No pellet stove is great at recovering house temps, they do it on a slow steady rise in temp, that's why they work best in a moderate burn but 24/7 and maintain temps rather than recover temps. But with that said it stands to reason that a P68 might recover a bit faster than a P61 and both faster than a P43. it's like a bigger engine in your car, both the big and small engine can cruise at 70 mph with ease but the big engine will get you up to speed quicker, fuel consumption is another matter LOL !!

 

[Bontchimuz]

Our old house was built in 1935 and we definitely felt drafts and questioned insulation.

The house we are in now was built in 1985 and its much better but its not a modern home per se.

Pretty sold on the P68 at this point due to size of house, height of ceilings, wife always wanting to be super warm and layout of house.

Just hope I don't sweat my A$$ off this winter and end up walking around in my briefs lol

 

[Tonyray]

Our old house was built in 1935 and we definitely felt drafts and questioned insulation.

The house we are in now was built in 1985 and its much better but its not a modern home per se.

Pretty sold on the P68 at this point due to size of house, height of ceilings, wife always wanting to be super warm and layout of house.

Just hope I don't sweat my A$$ off this winter and end up walking around in my briefs lol

you will appreciate the ease of cleaning the P series and the xtra large ash pan that doesn't need empting for dozens and dozens of bags of pellets burned.

 

[alternativeheat]

You will sweat according to as much as you turn the stove up to in temp. They burn quite efficiently turned down, combustion blower speed dials in automatically so you don't build much for creosote and deposits even on a fairly low burn, unlike choking off a wood stove.

Going into our fourth season with our P61, we are very happy with it thus far. If you buy a P68, it's a little bigger is all. One selling point for us as Tony brought up too, is these stoves are about the easiest to clean of many brands and models out there. Once I saw what you do to clean one of these compared with an insert we were looking at and even a free standing St Croix, I was sold. Pellet stoves do need to be cleaned regularly, you don't want one where that little task is big instead and takes the joy out of ownership.

 

[Bontchimuz]

UPDATE:

Finally had the P68 installed and burned 2 bags of "Green Supreme" which is average pellets from most people I talk to.

Wow this thing gives off amazing heat even at lowest setting.

Only things I am trying to understand/get used to:

1 - The auger seems to feed the burner ohhh every 15-20 seconds....is this normal?

2 - The auger is louder than I expected....but nothing too crazy and assume normal as well.

I couldn't be happier with my selection.

 

[alternativeheat]

UPDATE:

Finally had the P68 installed and burned 2 bags of "Green Supreme" which is average pellets from most people I talk to.

Wow this thing gives off amazing heat even at lowest setting.

Only things I am trying to understand/get used to:

1 - The auger seems to feed the burner ohhh every 15-20 seconds....is this normal?

2 - The auger is louder than I expected....but nothing too crazy and assume normal as well.

I couldn't be happier with my selection.

If you think it's doing well with GS pellets wait till you get some hot pellets.

Congrats on the stove and it's success !

The auger motor makes a little whir, the tinkling sound are the pellets dropping past the gate. And yes about the timing, that all sounds about normal, will vary a little according to what mode you run the stove in.

 

[Tonyray]

UPDATE:

Finally had the P68 installed and burned 2 bags of "Green Supreme" which is average pellets from most people I talk to.

Wow this thing gives off amazing heat even at lowest setting.

Only things I am trying to understand/get used to:

1 - The auger seems to feed the burner ohhh every 15-20 seconds....is this normal?

2 - The auger is louder than I expected....but nothing too crazy and assume normal as well.

I couldn't be happier with my selection.

Yes...

UPDATE:

Finally had the P68 installed and burned 2 bags of "Green Supreme" which is average pellets from most people I talk to.

Wow this thing gives off amazing heat even at lowest setting.

Only things I am trying to understand/get used to:

1 - The auger seems to feed the burner ohhh every 15-20 seconds....is this normal?

2 - The auger is louder than I expected....but nothing too crazy and assume normal as well.

I couldn't be happier with my selection.[/QUOTE
The feed rate setting on Harman pellet stoves is based on a 60 second cycle. When the stove has a demand for heat based on your "Room Temp" setting of 74* and is 3* below the setpoint the stove will initially run the augar on a 60 second cycle, feed rate of 4 means the augar will run for 40 seconds, idle for 20 seconds. This cycle continues until the temp being registered by the room sensor approaches the temp setpoint on the stove, before the temp over shoots the target setpoint the circuit board over rides the initial feed cycle and starts to maintain the heat output by running the augar only to keep the room temp satisfied, this will vary within the 60 second cycle. When the room temp is satisfied the stove will run the augar approx. 7 seconds every minute to keep fuel in the burnpot. If you are running your stove in "Auto" with self ignition the stove will shutoff when it "CAN NOT" maintain a temp within 3* (77*)of your setpoint. Mostly on warmer days in the spring and fall. Having the feed rate set to low will not allow the stove to bring the room temp up in a reasonable amount of time, thus it will take much longer to achieve a setpoint with a feed rate of 2 because the augar will only cycle fuel for 20 seconds and sit idle for 40 seconds. You can potentially consume more fuel with a low feed rate setting, because you limit the max BTU output of the stove.

 

[bogieb]

Looks like you have a happy crew that you are sharing the warmth with.

 

[alternativeheat]

Tony, I was staying about 100 yards away from the mention of the feed rate dial. Nothing can muddy the waters for a Harman newbie ( or the forum) more than introducing them to that dial. We go through it every year, and they either end up delusional and or deceived or just run it like they tell you to in the manual and sleep at night ! I really think the best advice is set the dial at about 3.75 , take the knob off and throw it in the trash and then forget it ever existed..LOL

 

[Bontchimuz]

Man this forum is a GODSEND of information.

Thanks tonyray and alternativeheat for that info. Yes, bogieb my son instantly laid on the floor in front of it when he got home from daycare lol.

I understand the feed-rate dial....kind of lol. I have only had it set lower like 1.5-2.5 and so far only run this beast on auto at 60 as its blasting heat. I will attempt the manual setting with temp room sensor dooohickey tonight.

I also should watch that DVD Harman sent me, I'm sure it has everything I need in it.

Finally, I can't wait to try all the other pellet brands. I bought 3 bags of about 5 brands to get a feel for them before I load up on 2-3 tons. Can't quite figure out what my best option is price-wise/pellet-wise etc.

 

[alternativeheat]

Sounds like you're trying to run it in constant burn in this relatively mild weather. I run in room temp auto and let the stove come on and off at will. And I set the temp on the dial to the temp I want the house to be and that is what happens 24/7, this time of year or in mid Jan. My room probe is taped to the back and high up on the hopper with the probe sticking out the side a couple of inches or so. I have the dial set at 72, the dining room next room over from the stove is 72 right now and the stove is shutting itself down. Later this afternoon it will relight itself to maintain 72. Feed rate for these pellets is 3.5 and probably will remain there all winter.. And incidentally, the stove will only feed at 3.5 when it calls for it, it's not a fixed setting ( I hate getting into this yet again but almost all Harman users end up running their stoves after all is said and done someplace between 3 and 4 or 4.5 nuff said, meanwhile they just deceive themselves into thinking they are saving pellets or some other notion) .

 

[Bontchimuz]

Ok, cool man, thanks. I just learned some more info. I was trying to figure out best positioning for that temp probe....should be longer IMHO....but oh well.

 

[alternativeheat]

Ok, cool man, thanks. I just learned some more info. I was trying to figure out best positioning for that temp probe....should be longer IMHO....but oh well.

Yeah, at the back of the stove it's reading returning air to the convection process. FWIW, you also can cut the probe wire and add on some thermostat wire and run it into the next room or there abouts. I think Harman allows 25 ft or so . Honestly I have not needed to do that. But if you mount it too low that isn't so hot either. Cool air returns along the floor, I've found that 3-4 ft off the floor is a good place behind the stove. There are several of us who do this in the forum, some not so active these days I might add. In fact I believe Tony does the same as I do.

"And incidentally, the stove will only feed at 3.5 when it calls for it, it's not a fixed setting ( I hate getting into this yet again but almost all Harman users end up running their stoves after all is said and done someplace between 3 and 4 or 4.5 nuff said, meanwhile they just deceive themselves into thinking they are saving pellets or some other notion)" .