Back to to basics

[timberbuilt]

I am currently building my house and am planning on a central heating system based on in-floor water heat. Because I have a tendency to do everything myself my head is spinning with decisions to be made regarding everything with the house. I have been researching heating techniques and I think I am leaning towards an indoor gasification unit placed in an outbuilding. Here comes the crux, there is not a person within 500 miles whose ever heard of such a thing let alone anyone who has actually used one. So if you wouldn't mind perhaps a review of some basics relating to wood boilers may be possible. I've read and searched many threads, but am getting dizzy with it all. So here are some questions regarding gasification and such:

- How often do you need to start a fire? Starting out I thought you just started a fire sometime in the fall and then just kept stoking it all winter but this doesn't seem to be the case?
- Is is possible to put something like an elec or propane in-line water heater in the system for backup? I want to be able to leave the house for longer than a day and I don't really want to buy an complete backup system.
- Are there models available that have an auto-backup system built in? What about wood/pellet combo units?
- These gasification units seem to be premium in price, what gives are they coated in gold? I need to heat with wood, but don't want the mess in the house. Other than that a good wood stove would pay for itself ten times over compared to the price of these boilers.

I think these are enough to start with. Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[jebatty]

I think most of us who followed the gasifer route started with spinning heads. Relax, you won't be dizzy forever. First things first: do a heat load calc, and maybe this has been done already in your planning for in-floor hot water radiant heat. The heat load calc will tell you what you need for a heating system. Second, although not required, a gasifer with added storage is a real plus. Plan for at least 500 gal pressurized storage, but I think in most cases 1000 gal is better. Used LP tanks (well cleaned) are good for this. Third, with storage, how often you fire will depend on your heat demand, but highly unlikely you will need to burn 24/7. 4-12 hours during high demand periods (3 +/- loads of wood) might be reasonable, and less often during lower demand times. Some can go for 1-5 days between firings; it all depends on heat demand. Operation is very easy, even a 5th grader can do it, with a little experience. Operation is very logical, once you know what is going of and use your head.

Yes, backup is possible and good planning, IMO. I would plan backup just to provide freeze protection, not to provide the comfort heat of a full system. I think there are combo units, but I have no experience with them.

I see no "gold" premium price at all when compared to other wood boiler systems, particularly the traditional OWB. In a hot water system, a large part of the cost is the plumbing you would have to do with any hot water system. From there it depends on what size boiler you need. Prices have been pretty good lately, and $6-8,000 for the boiler may be a typical range, plus installation, which many do themselves. If you have wood supply, a gassifer has quick payback, like $0 heating cost compared to several thousand $, perhaps, with LP, oil or electric. Our heating cost last year heating season was $200 for backup electric when we were gone.

Nothing wrong with a good wood stove, but it won't do what in-floor hot water radiant will do. I heat my shop with the gasifer (new shop with in-floor radiant being built and will move the system for operation next winter), and heat the house with a wood stove (now in the 19th heating season with the same wood stove). My wife tends the stove as well as I do. We love the heat a wood stove puts out, which also is radiant. A little wood mess in the house, a little ash dust, and air-borne dust too. Don't forget if you had a forced air furnace in the past, there was an air cleaner which kept the air-borne dust down. Without an air cleaner, that dust just appears everywhere, especially in spring tree pollen season where we live.

Good luck!

 

[in hot water]

Where in Montana? There are quite a few good radiant and solar contractors in Montana, most travel a bit to take on jobs, especially in slow times.

The first crucial step is a heat load calc and design. It may be worth sending money on that as it's your "road map" to success weather you do the work yourself or hire it out, or do half and half.

I'd be glad to give you some names if you want design assistance. The RPA website is another place to look for radiant contractors and designers.

Check out the "Wood and Water" article in this magazine. I know the author John Siegenthaler has done designs for homes in Montana, including wood fired ones. Radiant Engineering in Bozeman is another design company with lots of RE experience.


www.hpacmag.sartech.ca/archives/2009/3_April.pdf

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[timberbuilt]

. Third, with storage, how often you fire will depend on your heat demand, but highly unlikely you will need to burn 24/7. 4-12 hours during high demand periods (3 +/- loads of wood) might be reasonable, and less often during lower demand times. Some can go for 1-5 days between firings;

Thanks for the good info. We've been heating with wood for several years but are tired of the mess so that is why we want to locate everything outside with the new house. What do you mean by firing? Does that imply that you fill it full of wood and flip a switch, or does that imply you spend 1/2+ hr building a fire from scratch?

 

[mtnmizer]

I live up the L.Blackfoot at the bottom of MacPass----and have a econoburn 150. Western MT
is full of progressive folks that do things like woodgas boilers. For example something like 6 local schools run
on wood fired heating systems.. How much experience with wood heat do you have?

How often do you need to start a fire? Starting out I thought you just started a fire sometime in the fall and then just kept stoking it all winter but this doesn’t seem to be the case?

Right now its 7 above zero so I am running straight to demand nearly full time. I let the fire go out and relight in the AM.
Last week I burned every other day by heating the slab in the basement and letting it heat the house.


-

Is is possible to put something like an elec or propane in-line water heater in the system for backup? I want to be able to leave the house for longer than a day and I don’t really want to buy an complete backup system.

My wood boiler is plumbed in parallel with a propane fired boiler hot water heat system, domestic hot water
via boilermate. I can set the propane boiler low and run off wood or leave it high and leave for however long
I want and heat off propane. You anywhere near Bozeman? There's some really nice $ystemsup at Big Sky
done by a group in town. I'm sure its the same over in the Bitterroot or up in the Whitefish area. Don't
know much about eastern MT but I bet Red Lodge area has someone or from Billings. My plumber
who helped me has done quite a few Tarms and outdoor boilers (which he doesn't like)

- Are there models available that have an auto-backup system built in? What about wood/pellet combo units?

What are you going to use for fuel? I cut mine on site (unlimited amount pine & fir) I don't know how I would operate
if I had to haul long distance--buy it by the log truck load.


-

These gasification units seem to be premium in price, what gives are they coated in gold? I need to heat with wood, but don’t want the mess in the house. Other than that a good wood stove would pay for itself ten times over compared to the price of these boilers.

My uncle built custom homes up the Gallatin back in the 50's & 60's and he usually put a large stone fireplace
in the home center aka swedish style with a good fuel flow ie thru the garage into the basement.. get the
50+ tons of stone warm and everything is good. A gasifier will use less wood ,cost less, and be more comfortable
The break even for me is maybe 6 yrs compared to propane, if prices go back to where they were last year the
payback would be maybe 4 yrs. Mines in a walkin basement not much mess to speak of and I can fire it
in my PJ's morning or night.


I think these are enough to start with. Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[jebatty]

What do you mean by firing? Does that imply that you fill it full of wood and flip a switch, or does that imply you spend 1/2+ hr building a fire from scratch?

I mean starting a fire when the boiler has burned through a wood load and is dead out. For me, it takes 5-10 minutes to get a fire going, gasification started well, and fill the firebox with a wood load. Then leave it alone until burned down to low coals, add wood if more heat needed, etc. A typical burn of a load of wood is about 4 hours +/-.