I am in the process of hooking up my portage and main bl2840 boiler. I have everything outside done. I had a guy that was gonna come over and do the plumbing inside. Well he was supposed to be here 3 different times but never showed up and didnt bother to call or anything. So that makes me super pist. So I am just gonna do it myself. My one question as of right now is, will to many 90 degree fitting cause any problems? They will give a cleaner look than just trying to bend the stiff tubing.
boiler plumbing
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getting plumbing advise on here seems to be tuff. I also asked for some help and didn't get any response.
Each 90 will add to your piping head.
Have you sized your pump already?
Check your calculations to make sure you will still be at your target flow rate with the addition of the elbows.
ac
All the pex inside for plumbing is 1". My pump is a grundfos 26-99. My stove is approx. 50ft from my house and is level with it also
So how much GPM do you need to transfer the btus you need to transfer?
How much head will you have without the elbows? With?
Does your circulator curve put you at the proper GPM with either case?
ac
It's because the information is very specific. Like this OP's question. He really needs to review his circulator calculations. My guess is he hasn't done any, yet he already has the pump and the lines. Most likely because his supplier said "here's the pump you need, it's the same one we use on every job". It will probably cost a fair amount of electricity to run, but who cares is the attitude. He's saving money not burning oil.
ac
maple1
Minister of Fire
No response?
Looks like your question was answered in a half hour, as best as could be at least.
You guys are spot on. I have no idea on any of this stuff. Hell, for all I know the damn set up may not work. Never thought about any of the gpm stuff. This is why I ask you guys for advise. I would like to think I can rely on people I know to help but they put me in perdicument im in. Im at least gonna get it hooked up and see how it does. Thanks everyone for the information. And yes I will be saving money no matter what because Im not using the electice furnace
maple1
Minister of Fire
Don't feel too bad - there's some trial & error in some of this sometimes too. Or at least very likely will be for those DIYing some or all of it. Just try to figure out as much as you can ahead of time, do what calcs you can do, and try to install things so changes will be easier later if needed. Like - LOTS of shut off valves, drain points, air bleed points, and maybe couplings where you can or at least easier access for cutting & re-joining. I'm going into season 3, have made some changes & tweaks, and have thought of others to make. And 'all' I had to do was swap one boiler for another.
Well, more or less....
Well, more or less....
I know the guys said a taco 009 would be big enough but I bought the grundfos pump that is comparable to a taco 0011. If I remember right, the grundfos 26-99 specs are 34gpm and up to 31ft head pressure. So now that I look back at it im glad I went with the bigger pump. And yes, I am definately making it easy to replace stuff with sharkbite fittings and valves. Its just a bummer that I am doing this myself now. So much for trading work for plumbing. I always get screwed on these deals. Oh well, at least I have you guys on here to help. I just cany wait to get the boiler up and running. There us only o e other portage and main boiler in my area and its a ml36. I have had a lot of people stop by and check mine out. So hopefully I will it going pretty soon.
is there anyone on here that does this for a living that you can pay to do the calculations so we don't do it wrong the first time? now I know why not a lot of response to some of the questions. sorry if my message was taken the wrong way.
maple1
Minister of Fire
One should be able to find someone local, with a bit of digging, who could help.
Start with places that sell boilers, then installers. Somewhere in the background of those, there should be someone doing some calcs & design so things will work right. In my case when my house was built 18 years ago, the seller/installer had a design guy under contract who whipped them up schematics for distribution etc.. He was transparent to me - but turned out he later became my neighbour. 'All' they should really need is the output ratings & specs of your boiler, and if your working at the distribution side, fairly simple details on the house construction so they can figure heat load. And some constraints supplied by you, like what you do & don't want in a system (baseboard? underfloor?).
There are quite capable pros on here who might be able to privately help out - but they also have their daily lives & businesses they need to focus on too, and like all of us, don't work for free. And, this is likely the busiest time of their year. Most of the rest of us just made like sponges on here over a lot of months and then made a big DIY plunge.
Start with places that sell boilers, then installers. Somewhere in the background of those, there should be someone doing some calcs & design so things will work right. In my case when my house was built 18 years ago, the seller/installer had a design guy under contract who whipped them up schematics for distribution etc.. He was transparent to me - but turned out he later became my neighbour. 'All' they should really need is the output ratings & specs of your boiler, and if your working at the distribution side, fairly simple details on the house construction so they can figure heat load. And some constraints supplied by you, like what you do & don't want in a system (baseboard? underfloor?).
There are quite capable pros on here who might be able to privately help out - but they also have their daily lives & businesses they need to focus on too, and like all of us, don't work for free. And, this is likely the busiest time of their year. Most of the rest of us just made like sponges on here over a lot of months and then made a big DIY plunge.
The Uponor Complete Design Assistance Manual and Zurn Radiant Design Manuals are both free pdfs you can find with a google search, aimed at professionals, and contain a wealth of information on moving btus from a boiler to whereever via liquid.
Start there. Post specific information in a question, with your initial calculation or estimate. Folks here were more than generous with answers when I was looking for information.
Armaton
Member
In the third article in the "Useful tidbits" section is the link to the "taco" sight that has the equations that can help you. Just figure the lengths and elbows and other items and you should be close.
Generally over-pumping doesn't help. This isn't like buying a pressure washer. More pump isn't always better.
Check out the TACO website. They have a great article on how to size circulator pumps. In that article you will find how to properly size the pump, as well as see how much difference your elbows will make.
No one can do it for you because there are simply too many variables. You will understand that once you read the article.
ac
Portage and Main BL28-40 Ultimizer Max Output = 225kbtu/hr
Assumed 80% average output = .8 x 225 = 180 kbtu/hr
Assuming a 30deg F deltaT across a water to air HX you must flow ~12 gpm
Assuming a 20deg F deltaT across a water to air HX you must flow ~18 gpm
Pushing 12 gpm thru 1" pex with .863" ID = flow velocity of 6.5 feet/sec (50% above the recommended speed for low head loss)
Assuming maybe 20 ells and tees and equivalent length of 230' = ~13' head
Pushing 18 gpm =9.8 fps (ouch) = ~27' head (velocity is a killer)
No idea what you are assuming as far as the DeltaT returning to the P&M. Depends on what the HX was sized for. If radiant I have no idea. But sounds like someone gave you a really big honking pump to work with the undersized pex for that size of boiler.
Pex undersized. Pump oversized. Looks like it will work per Taco TD10.
Be Blessed.
Assumed 80% average output = .8 x 225 = 180 kbtu/hr
Assuming a 30deg F deltaT across a water to air HX you must flow ~12 gpm
Assuming a 20deg F deltaT across a water to air HX you must flow ~18 gpm
Pushing 12 gpm thru 1" pex with .863" ID = flow velocity of 6.5 feet/sec (50% above the recommended speed for low head loss)
Assuming maybe 20 ells and tees and equivalent length of 230' = ~13' head
Pushing 18 gpm =9.8 fps (ouch) = ~27' head (velocity is a killer)
No idea what you are assuming as far as the DeltaT returning to the P&M. Depends on what the HX was sized for. If radiant I have no idea. But sounds like someone gave you a really big honking pump to work with the undersized pex for that size of boiler.
Pex undersized. Pump oversized. Looks like it will work per Taco TD10.
Be Blessed.
Wow, I kinda feel like an idiot. I didnt have clue on any of this kind of stuff. Now you guys know your stuff. Lol. I got some figuring to do. Well maybe I can get through this winter anyways
You should only feel like an idiot when you make the wrong choices about stuff you DO know about. I've got lots of experience at that too. I was where you are now 6 years ago and these guys are my boiler lifeline.
Best wishes, Cummins and Powerstrokes forever!!
Best wishes, Cummins and Powerstrokes forever!!
Duramax, Over the weekend it bothered me I didn't look at the 26-99 pump curves. I blew thru the flow calcs at the end of my day in a hurry to get home. It doesn't look like you can do 20deg F deltaT with that pump. The head pressure is too high. 25-30 deltaT appears fine.
I know the analysis was free, but I want it to accurate. Hope this helps. Google that pump and look at its curves.
I know the analysis was free, but I want it to accurate. Hope this helps. Google that pump and look at its curves.
For what its worth;
I replaced both my 24 year old Taco pumps with basic 3 speed B+G dumb pumps
and the lowest pump speed(number 1 setting) is giving me the best results with
a single zone loop system with a temperature balancing pump between the oil
and wood and coal boiler.
I would strongly suggest you put the pump(s) inside out of the weather to eliminate
any chance of freezing and pump damage if you have not done that already.
I replaced both my 24 year old Taco pumps with basic 3 speed B+G dumb pumps
and the lowest pump speed(number 1 setting) is giving me the best results with
a single zone loop system with a temperature balancing pump between the oil
and wood and coal boiler.
I would strongly suggest you put the pump(s) inside out of the weather to eliminate
any chance of freezing and pump damage if you have not done that already.
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