As usual, you are right AND funny as hell!
4 Machines
!! That's some serious stuff. Almost as serious as pellet stove pampering! Yea, the machines are amazingly complicated once I got into the guts! Figured it out, though!Calm our fears!
- Thread starter John Fortier
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
4 Machines
!! That's some serious stuff. Almost as serious as pellet stove pampering! Yea, the machines are amazingly complicated once I got into the guts! Figured it out, though!
kenstogie
Feeling the Heat
I used to worry that "oh no this thing is on and I am sleeping or not home" but now that i know how they work I am less worried about the pellet stove and more worried about the dryer, or a stray mouse chewing some insulation on my lectric system and it arcing starting a fire that way.
Besides isn't a pellet stove a simpler stove than an oil furnace? And simple things work with less muss and fuss.
Besides isn't a pellet stove a simpler stove than an oil furnace? And simple things work with less muss and fuss.
In the larger house that we owned before our current "empty nest" we had a gas furnace in the garage and a gas furnace in the attic- right over my bed. We had central air units but no heat pumps- so the furnaces were our only source of heat in the house besides the gas fireplaces. We had a gas fireplace in the bedroom as well- but we never slept with that running. It put out too much heat. I did sleep in the room with that fireplace, with the pilot light running all winter long, for many years.
I heard the gas furnace kick on over my bed all night long in the winter.
The gas furnace is in the laundry room in this house, and the flames in the furnace are at eye level. Trust me, there is fire in the furnace. Coincidentally, *this* gas furnace is behind my bed, directly on the other side of the wall. =/
In all cases, those flames are/were being fed via natural gas lines over which I have no control.
The flame in the burn pot in the pellet stove in the other room seems rather tame by comparison. If anything goes wrong with the stove, I can turn it off, I can unplug it, I can threaten it with the fire extinguisher. I can even unload the fire extinguisher on it.
Somehow, I don't think unloading a fire extinguisher on a gas furnace that's being fed by municipal gas lines is going to be nearly as effective as it would be on a pellet stove.
Put a smoke detector and a CO detector in the room with the stove, make sure their batteries are changed regularly, keep your stove clean, keep your exhaust vent/chimney clean, if you have a direct vent (horizontal vent pipe terminating with a downward exhaust director/no vertical chimney) keep the area under and around the vent free of combustibles and vegetation. And then- enjoy your beautiful stove!
I heard the gas furnace kick on over my bed all night long in the winter.
The gas furnace is in the laundry room in this house, and the flames in the furnace are at eye level. Trust me, there is fire in the furnace. Coincidentally, *this* gas furnace is behind my bed, directly on the other side of the wall. =/
In all cases, those flames are/were being fed via natural gas lines over which I have no control.
The flame in the burn pot in the pellet stove in the other room seems rather tame by comparison. If anything goes wrong with the stove, I can turn it off, I can unplug it, I can threaten it with the fire extinguisher. I can even unload the fire extinguisher on it.
Somehow, I don't think unloading a fire extinguisher on a gas furnace that's being fed by municipal gas lines is going to be nearly as effective as it would be on a pellet stove.
Put a smoke detector and a CO detector in the room with the stove, make sure their batteries are changed regularly, keep your stove clean, keep your exhaust vent/chimney clean, if you have a direct vent (horizontal vent pipe terminating with a downward exhaust director/no vertical chimney) keep the area under and around the vent free of combustibles and vegetation. And then- enjoy your beautiful stove!
MarkSJohnson
Member
I also want to take a minute to thank those that contributed to this thread. As a "soon to be" stove owner, all of this helps to allay my fears of a pellet stove and to remind me not to mess with sewing machines!
If it is installed right, it's as safe or safer as any other heating system, save electric or any other without a flame. Take a look inside the viewing hole at what your oil burner puts out when it's running and your fears will be over.
toddnic
Minister of Fire
Was your system professionally installed? If so, you are at a very minimal risk of any issues. You have an open flame with your oil furnance. What's the difference between the oil furnance or the stove? Your pellet stove is encapsulated in metal and as long as your system was installed to code, you should be good to burn 24/7.
RKS130
Minister of Fire
Have our first pellet stove and so far testing different pellet while we are home and awake. We need to get over our fear of sleeping or leaving our house for fear of fire..Help!!(
It took about a week of watching the stove work perfectly to get over it. Plus, we realized we had been sleeping well for years with the oil burner cycling all night.
Come to think of it, the lack of sleep from worrying about paying for the oil led us to the pellet stove to begin with.....go figure.
Unloading the extinguisher will do nothing to your pellet stove, the fire is safely stowed away inside!
You will not be able to get near that pipe on fire, think oxy-aceteline torch on steroids!
Now that scares the hell out of me!
Bill
Bill, I was thinking in terms of a hopper fire, which is not very likely in today's pellet stoves, and not very likely in our Napoleon given its pellet feed design. In the case of a hopper fire, you bet I'd unload the fire extinguisher, right after I unloaded my bladder onto the floor (TMI, I KNOW) and right before I threw the cat and the dog out of the house and then ran screaming out of the house after them. (My husband is on his own. If he can't figure out that IT'S TIME TO LEAVE from the smoke in the house, the puddle in the floor, and the cat flying through the window, well, there's not much I can do for him.) I'm calling the fire dept. from the neighbor's house- although by that point I'm sure that the whole neighborhood would be awake and in the street anyway.
Anyway, not to deliberately hijack the thread, but in my mind, the major risk of a pellet stove is a hopper fire, which is not likely in newer stoves. My limited understanding of this phenomenon is that in modern stoves, it's primarily caused by poorly maintained/chronically not clean stoves- but I do not understand the mechanism by which this happens. Can anyone enlighten us as to how a hopper fire might come about?
I also don't want to raise anyone's anxiety unduly with the specter of a hopper fire. Hopefully the experts (stove techs, stove shop owners) will chime in here, tell us how unlikely this is, tell us how it happens and tell us how to avoid them. My technique so far has been to keep the stove meticulously clean, which isn't difficult at all. Bonus round, a clean stove is a more efficient stove and puts out more heat.
Anyway, not to deliberately hijack the thread, but in my mind, the major risk of a pellet stove is a hopper fire, which is not likely in newer stoves. My limited understanding of this phenomenon is that in modern stoves, it's primarily caused by poorly maintained/chronically not clean stoves- but I do not understand the mechanism by which this happens. Can anyone enlighten us as to how a hopper fire might come about?
I also don't want to raise anyone's anxiety unduly with the specter of a hopper fire. Hopefully the experts (stove techs, stove shop owners) will chime in here, tell us how unlikely this is, tell us how it happens and tell us how to avoid them. My technique so far has been to keep the stove meticulously clean, which isn't difficult at all. Bonus round, a clean stove is a more efficient stove and puts out more heat.
hyfire
Minister of Fire
hyfire
Minister of Fire
Well I know it would shut down, but is it possible to ignite the fuel in the hopper, or totally impossible? I don;t like GAS I think its more dangerous than wood burning device..
These stoves are meant to run unintended or you would not be able to put multiple bags of pellets in. I run a Enviro Maxx with heat duct kit which extends the hopper a little i put 4 bags in early last Sat. and went to Florida for 3 days, had a friend of mine stop over on Monday morning and put 2 more bags in just to make sure it would be still running Monday night when i got home late.
Rest peacefully with a few CO and Smoke detectors. At least two of each and from different manufacturers.
Only you can prevent forest fires which is great because I have other things to do.
Only you can prevent forest fires which is great because I have other things to do.
For those of you worrying about a hopper fire, the very first thing that is needed is air if your stove's fuel feed door is closed it isn't going to get enough air to be a fire, now that leaves one with a smoldering mess, that can indeed (besides stink the place up) become a roaring inferno if you make the mistake of opening up the fuel feed door (hopper lid).
In newer stoves they added gaskets, interlock switches, and latches all of these together smother the fire or stop the feed.
The worst thing you can do is open the hooper lid if you experience burn-back in the feed system.
The normal cause of burn back is failure to maintain a clean stove system and frequently it also requires a second failure in the stove's system.
Other causes of fuel in the hopper becoming a problem is if any of the insulation provided by the stove maker is removed or damaged, once again to become a roaring fire it needs air. Keep your stoves doors closed and latched and maintain all gaskets properly.
If the combustion fan stops for any reason the first thing that happens if the stove still has power is the controller shuts down the fuel feed due to lack of proper pressure in the firebox, the fact that smoke is still being generated means that some of that may exit the air intake (a properly installed OAK stops that) and if there is no OAK it is possible for a natural draft to cause any of this smoke to exit via the vent. Now it is also possible for some of this smoke to exit the stove into the room if there is a negative pressure situation in the room with the stove.
I'm sure I missed something in the above but several others on here might chime in.
In newer stoves they added gaskets, interlock switches, and latches all of these together smother the fire or stop the feed.
The worst thing you can do is open the hooper lid if you experience burn-back in the feed system.
The normal cause of burn back is failure to maintain a clean stove system and frequently it also requires a second failure in the stove's system.
Other causes of fuel in the hopper becoming a problem is if any of the insulation provided by the stove maker is removed or damaged, once again to become a roaring fire it needs air. Keep your stoves doors closed and latched and maintain all gaskets properly.
If the combustion fan stops for any reason the first thing that happens if the stove still has power is the controller shuts down the fuel feed due to lack of proper pressure in the firebox, the fact that smoke is still being generated means that some of that may exit the air intake (a properly installed OAK stops that) and if there is no OAK it is possible for a natural draft to cause any of this smoke to exit via the vent. Now it is also possible for some of this smoke to exit the stove into the room if there is a negative pressure situation in the room with the stove.
I'm sure I missed something in the above but several others on here might chime in.
Thank you, Smokey!
You know, our Napoleon does NOT have a gasket, nor a latch, nor a switch on our hopper door. There is a sticker on the inside of the hopper door that gives basic operating instructions. A section of the instructions has been redacted with a black marker. As best we can see through the redaction, it appears to be instructions on latching the hopper lid- and there is no latch. So, the design must have changed.
Our Napoleon has a top-feeding pellet delivery system. The auger points and feeds upward. The auger and the pellet delivery chute meet at the apex of the feed system; once delivered/pushed up to this apex by the auger, the pellets then free fall through the delivery chute and out of the chute into the burn pot. There is a gap between the end of the delivery chute and the top of the burn pot. Pellets do not stay in the chute for any length of time, so there's no consistent availability of fuel in the chute.
I guess the "safety mechanism" in this case is that it's pretty unlikely that the fire could crawl up the pellet delivery chute (what would it burn?) and then crawl back down the auger on the other side of the apex. I don't know exactly what happens at that apex; perhaps the juncture of the auger and the pellet delivery chute is fairly tight, so there's little chance of back draft into the hopper? but I really don't know.
I do try to keep in mind that if I ever see smoke coming out of the hopper lid, I SHOULD NOT OPEN IT. Perhaps I will threaten it with the fire extinguisher, BUT I SHOULD NOT OPEN IT. DO NOT PASS GO. PROCEED DIRECTLY TO MAKING PUDDLE ON FLOOR, THROWING CAT OUT WINDOW, SHOVING DOG OUT DOOR, RUN SCREAMING INTO THE STREET.
Got it.
You know, our Napoleon does NOT have a gasket, nor a latch, nor a switch on our hopper door. There is a sticker on the inside of the hopper door that gives basic operating instructions. A section of the instructions has been redacted with a black marker. As best we can see through the redaction, it appears to be instructions on latching the hopper lid- and there is no latch. So, the design must have changed.
Our Napoleon has a top-feeding pellet delivery system. The auger points and feeds upward. The auger and the pellet delivery chute meet at the apex of the feed system; once delivered/pushed up to this apex by the auger, the pellets then free fall through the delivery chute and out of the chute into the burn pot. There is a gap between the end of the delivery chute and the top of the burn pot. Pellets do not stay in the chute for any length of time, so there's no consistent availability of fuel in the chute.
I guess the "safety mechanism" in this case is that it's pretty unlikely that the fire could crawl up the pellet delivery chute (what would it burn?) and then crawl back down the auger on the other side of the apex. I don't know exactly what happens at that apex; perhaps the juncture of the auger and the pellet delivery chute is fairly tight, so there's little chance of back draft into the hopper? but I really don't know.
I do try to keep in mind that if I ever see smoke coming out of the hopper lid, I SHOULD NOT OPEN IT. Perhaps I will threaten it with the fire extinguisher, BUT I SHOULD NOT OPEN IT. DO NOT PASS GO. PROCEED DIRECTLY TO MAKING PUDDLE ON FLOOR, THROWING CAT OUT WINDOW, SHOVING DOG OUT DOOR, RUN SCREAMING INTO THE STREET.
Got it.
MarkSJohnson
Member
You know, you're talking "fire" and "making a puddle". If those two events could be creatively combined.......
beca,
The normal wording on hopper lids that do not latch, have gaskets, and so forth is to the effect: "Operate this unit only when the fuel hooper lid is closed" This was usually on a sticker somewhere under the lid frequently on the bottom of the lid handle so it was exposed to view when the lid was opened, frequently it was on a red background.
The way you get burn back in a top feed stove is if the burn pot builds up to the point the drop chute is blocked, pellets then continue to be sent up by the auger and the drop tube gets blocked with unburned pellet, these pellets light up (well actually not much fire just a lot of charing and smoke) and the drop chute gets involved, eventually the auger fills the top of its flight bridging with the charing smoldering hot pellets in in the drop tube and then the pellets in the auger flight become involved, this is followed by the pellets and such in the bottom of the hopper.
Some stoves have a burn back thermo disc that is against the drop tube to stop the pellet feed getting to the point it can bridge into the auger flight and from there into the hopper.
The normal wording on hopper lids that do not latch, have gaskets, and so forth is to the effect: "Operate this unit only when the fuel hooper lid is closed" This was usually on a sticker somewhere under the lid frequently on the bottom of the lid handle so it was exposed to view when the lid was opened, frequently it was on a red background.
The way you get burn back in a top feed stove is if the burn pot builds up to the point the drop chute is blocked, pellets then continue to be sent up by the auger and the drop tube gets blocked with unburned pellet, these pellets light up (well actually not much fire just a lot of charing and smoke) and the drop chute gets involved, eventually the auger fills the top of its flight bridging with the charing smoldering hot pellets in in the drop tube and then the pellets in the auger flight become involved, this is followed by the pellets and such in the bottom of the hopper.
Some stoves have a burn back thermo disc that is against the drop tube to stop the pellet feed getting to the point it can bridge into the auger flight and from there into the hopper.
for those folks that are afraid of the fire in the stove and dont want to leave it on I will remind you...your central system uses fire also
MarkSJohnson
Member
I DO understand the comparison to having another furnace / boiler. In my case, we have Natural Gas, so there's likely more concern there than a pellet stove.
But I WILL say that since my stove is to be installed in the basement and I have a wood shop there, I'm going to allow myself three days "off" to work in my workshop. Nothing like giving yourself a reason to justify three days of fun!
But I WILL say that since my stove is to be installed in the basement and I have a wood shop there, I'm going to allow myself three days "off" to work in my workshop. Nothing like giving yourself a reason to justify three days of fun!
Aha! Thank you, Smokey- informative as always! That would have to be one heck of a pellet build up in the burn pot... I guess it looks remarkable to me, from here, because Napoleon's burn pot is so deep. There's a pretty good gap between the top of the burn pot and the bottom of the drop chute as well. Huh. I'm re-visiting Pellet Stove 101 here, but I'm trying to remember what situation(s) would lead to a pellet build up that severe... without the pellets actually burning off... ???
Anyway, yes, Mark, we will all fully support a three day basement sabbatical in order to acquaint yourself with your new stove. It does take a little bit to get to know your particular stove. While all pellet stoves operate on the same basic principals, and each manufacturer/model of stove has brand/model/design consistencies, I think that every stove burns a little differently because every install is different due to the variances intrinsic in each install location. The exact same model of stove will burn differently in two different houses, even in two different places in the same house, due to variances in venting, available air for the air intake, etc.
Three days spent with your stove now will go a long way toward you using your stove most efficiently when the real cold weather arrives.
You are planning to get an Outside Air Kit (OAK) installed, aren't you?
Anyway, yes, Mark, we will all fully support a three day basement sabbatical in order to acquaint yourself with your new stove.
It does take a little bit to get to know your particular stove. While all pellet stoves operate on the same basic principals, and each manufacturer/model of stove has brand/model/design consistencies, I think that every stove burns a little differently because every install is different due to the variances intrinsic in each install location. The exact same model of stove will burn differently in two different houses, even in two different places in the same house, due to variances in venting, available air for the air intake, etc.Three days spent with your stove now will go a long way toward you using your stove most efficiently when the real cold weather arrives.
You are planning to get an Outside Air Kit (OAK) installed, aren't you?
^^ That's probably why I don't get it- our Napoleon does *NOT* like being dirty. Any ash build up in the burn pot creates a clinker and a dirty burn sooner rather than later. It's easy to clean the Napoleon so I do it all the time- sometimes every day.
Right now we are burning a surprisingly ashy batch of Hamers. We've burned Hamers for years before this without a problem. This batch of Hamers (actually, it's last year's batch) is really, really ashy. I have to empty the burn pot at least every other day, usually every day with this batch. If I have to cool the stove down enough to reach in and dump the burn pot, I might as well let it cool all the way down and clean it while I'm in there. It takes a mere few minutes, and it's still warm enough here to shut the stove down during the day without tripping the HVAC t-stat and starting up the gas furnace.
We are manually sifting these last few bags of Hamers, and I'll be glad when we are done with them. We had a great experience with Hamers before this batch. =(
Bad air flow can cause the ash not to get ejected from the burn pot. When was the last time a real heavy duty vent and ash trap clean out was done?
- Status
Similar threads
