Castile noises and flame height

[Dwig]

Hi all,

I recently got a Castile insert and I was wondering what others' experiences have been with the sound coming from them. My stove really has two sounds that I hear: the whoosh of the blower and also more of a high-pitched spinning or whirring sound, which I thought was coming from the combustion blower but now I'm not sure.

Since the stove is under warrantee, I called the dealer and had them replace the combustion blower. This didn't do anything. The service guy seemed to think that everything sounded fine, but he admitted that his hearing wasn't very good and the sound wasn't very strong then he was there. Now I think that the high-pitched sound is coming from the convection blower. It seems to be louder when the stove is hot. Is that just the way Castiles sound? I guess I can get used to it because it's not very loud at all, but I wasn't expecting it. And from what I remember, I didn't hear the high-pitched sound in the first couple of weeks of having the stove.

As a second issue, I can't get the flame height to the normal 4-6 inch range. I'm running it at the +10% setting and full feed rate, but still the flame is usually just a little out of the burn pot. I've checked the auger and there is no jam. I'm burning Heat'rs pellets, which I got at Home Depot. I'm wondering if the pellets are just lousy for my stove? There aren't a lot of reviews out there for this brand of pellet. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Lake Girl]

Welcome to the forum!

Convection blower on the Castile does not require lubrication per the manual. If it had lubrication ports, I would say just lube it and carry on... call the dealer again. Apologize for getting the problem fan wrong but get it fixed!

As to the flame height, when you say full feed rate you have adjusted the feed rate control rod in the hopper? Doesn't look like much for air adjustment. Should be someone along who owns a Castile with better advice

 

[Dwig]

Thanks Lake Girl! I'll definitely just have to drag the dealer back.

For the flame height issue, I meant that the feed rate arm is all the way out and the stove is at the +10% setting on the control box.

I guess my question is what people mean when they say that their stove is picky when it comes to pellets, which I've read many times in other threads. I imagine that people must be talking about this issue - not getting enough flame/heat. Is that right?

 

[tjnamtiw]

When you checked the auger for blockage/bridging, where did you check? At the feed gate or did you look up the drop chute with a mirror and flashlight? How long are your pellets? Do you have some very long ones that are over an inch long? I had some 3" ones that raised heck
Also, if you follow the feed rod down to the flat metal feed gate, you'll feel a couple of round headed screws. These were VERY tight on my stoves and restricted movement of the gates. Loosen them up. Some people have gone so far as to take the gate out and elongate the slot so you can open the gate more. I didn't do that. Loosening the slot screw and removing the other one was enough for me and I have run the gamut of lousy pellets without having flame height issues. I never changed to +10% either. That's HIDING the problem, not SOLVING the problem IMHO.
Look up your drop chute and make sure nothing is wedged in front of the auger restricting the flow. I've had an aluminum warning label all smashed up in there as well as pieces of wood.

As to the noise, the fan is held in place with a magnet. There's also a thumb screw that is supposed to be there just for shipping. It is very possible that the fan has shifted in its location slightly. I actually left my thumb screws in place to hold the fan more securely. It certainly shouldn't be squeaking.

Another possibility for noise is the fact that we're dealing with a lot of flat pieces of sheet metal held in place with self-tapping screws that could have been over-zealously tightened by the little Chinese kid putting it together! Some pushing and prodding might find joints that are loose and squeaking when harmonics are set up occasionally.

 

[Dwig]

I totally agree that the +10% is not a solution if it's not a pellet quality issue. I've checked for auger jams with a mirror both from the firebox side and from the hopper side - nothing appears to be out of the ordinary. And it looked like the flat metal feed gate is totally clear of the hole to the auger. I also don't think it's a jam because from the moment I turned the stove on for the very first time I had this problem. That being said, my first bag of pellets was Penningtons, which had some pretty lengthy pellets. Is it possible to get a jam in the middle, hidden region of the auger tube between the feed gate and the exit chute? Could the auger be defective? I'm going to bug the dealer about this - I need a better solution than just adjusting to +10%.

As for the convection blower, it has the thumb screw but I don't feel the pull of a magnet. They may have changed out the magnet design. It seems that without the screw the blower would vibrate out of place in no time.

 

[DMKNLD]

Hi Dwig, Welcome ! Lots of Quad folks here on this forum, to include one of the 'Quad Wizards', TJ, who has already posted back to you. So I can't add allot to the discussion, other than confirming that my Castile FS can be a vibrating, harmonic, auger crunching, 'hot mess' as well ! X2 on TJ's suggestion to check your sheet metal screw contacts for vibration. My cast top plate would randomly rattle until I leveled the stove feet on my tile hearth pad, and that solved it, though your Insert has different stove body parts than my free - standing model.

My convection blower is the OEM - almost 14 y/o now, and started making allot of vibration last season, that was transferring through to the rear shrouding and side sheet metal plates. So on the smart suggestion of someone on here, I put some vibration absorbing fiber washers in between the convection blower motor mounts and the sheet metal housing, and that helped allot on cutting down the harmonics.

Having 3 long haired cats who like to hang out on top of or near the stove, I have to take out the 'squirrel cages' a couple of times per heating season to clean them, as the cat 'hair ball / dust bunny' combination can throw off the balance of the impeller fan blades also and cause a harmonic vibration.

RE your auger issues - probably less likely you would have a 'pellet bridge' in the mid - auger shaft area than at the top or bottom openings, but it's possible I guess that there could be some long pellets stuck in between 2 auger screw threads. That is a likely place for other auger obstruction stuff to end up - a piece of pellet bag plastic, pellet mill production detritus, small toys if you have kids, etc. that can pulled up from the hopper into the auger tube.

I know the Inserts are a PITA to get at the stove guts, but assuming you still have it out of the fireplace opening, you can loosen the 2 nuts that hold the auger bracket assembly to the stove body and gently wiggle the auger motor and the shaft in the auger tube to see if anything drops back down into the hopper. You'll need to have the hopper empty of pellets to see if anything drops down from the middle of the auger shaft.

You can take the whole auger assembly out by removing those 2 nuts, but use a magnetic socket. As TJ humorously quipped, unless you've got fingers the size of the Chinese kid who put it together, those little buggers are easy to drop and get lost into the bowels of your stove, (don't ask how I know that) !

Good luck !

 

[Dwig]

Thanks for the great advice everyone. I'll try each of these things over the weekend and report back. It's funny, when the repair guy came I was asking him all sorts of questions, expecting him to have the same level of know-how as I've read coming from people in this forum, but he had no clue. So in some ways, this forum is more valuable than a full warrantee.

I think you guys are right that what I'm hearing is likely a harmonic rather than a squealing blower. It's very hard to identify where it's coming from, which I wouldn't expect if it was coming from a blower. Also, it seems to change based on how long the stove has been on, which I correlate to temperature differences, which could change the fitting of the panels.

 

[Former Farmer]

It may be possible that you have noisy bearings in the convection blower.

I had installed new bearings from a local bearing supplier and they were much noisier than the old bearings which were wearing out. You could feel flat spots as you rotated the old bearings. I ended up replacing the whole blower and it is much quieter that the old blower with the worn bearings.

 

[Dwig]

So today I pulled the auger out to see if there was a jam or anything out of the ordinary. Everything was fine. I did notice that the auger has seeped some red oil, which accumulated at its lowest point, but didn't accumulate enough to drip off. Not sure if that's typical. I'm also not sure if the oil has been there since the beginning or if it's new.

I also adjusted all of the panel screws I could find, and I adjusted the back "feet" holding the back of the stove up.

Unfortunately, none of my efforts have seemed to make any difference. I think that the noise, which I'm still convinced is coming from or near the combustion blower, is probably in the normal range for Castiles (correct me if this seems clearly wrong). My wife thinks I'm a little crazy that the sound bugs me.

As for the flame height, I'm going to call the dealer and see what they can do about it. It's a pretty big problem. The stove won't even really function at low or medium. I tried running it a couple of times on medium and I think it ended up just turning itself off.

Thanks again everybody!

 

[DMKNLD]

Hi again Dwig,

Being a new Insert, with a replacement combustion blower, it seems the blower *shouldn't* be the problem with your flame height. Your Heat'rs softwood pellets get favorable to excellent reviews on here, so it doesn't seem like that should be your burn problem. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heatrs-pellets.76604/
You're sure your pellet feed gate inside the hopper is functioning correctly ? There is a small set screw that holds the feed plate into a slot, and sometimes that screw is too tight to open the feed gate adjustment correctly. You'll need to have the hopper pretty much empty of pellets to check that the plate is free to slide its full range of motion.

Sounds like your auger is OK, barring any grinding or bearing type motor noises - that was a good idea though to pull it out to check for any obstruction.The purple oil is likely just the residual gear box lube from when it was put together. If the gear lube was running down your auger tube or into the pellet drop chute, then 'Houston, we have a problem....', but that doesn't sound like the case.

RE your poor flame - you've got an air flow issue somewhere. All Quads, when correctly 'dialed in', are designed to pull allot of air through the fire pot, and yours apparently isn't. Being under warranty, make sure you 'hold your dealer to the fire' on making sure he didn't frig something up on the install, ie your venting - I assume the dealer did the vent and stove install ? There have been a host of threads on this forum of recent on dealer / installer 'misadventures' with venting and other issues.

Do you have an OAK - outside air kit ? What is your venting system into your chimney - 3" or 4" vent ? You ran it all the way up your chimney flue to the termination cap? What is your EVL - equivalent vent length ? (search 'EVL' in the search link, or the formula is in your manual on pg 14) https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heatrs-pellets.76604/ If your venting is incorrectly sized / plumbed your combustion blower could be unable to create the necessary 'forced draft' through your stove, hence a poor burn efficiency.

You're sure that your vent and stove air / ash pathway is clean and unobstructed all the way to the termination cap? Fire pot 'trap door' clean out is completely closed ? Your fire pot air holes are all clean / open, including the 4 small ones at the bottom of the sloped section ? You're sure your heat exchanger baffle and rear cast firebox plates are all installed / seated correctly in place?

Those all affect your air flow through the fire box. Any one or a combo of these issues could affect your air flow through the stove, and thus a cause of poor burn efficiency, a process of exclusion of which one(s) might be causing your burn problem.

Last thing to check, for now at least, , is that your control box lights are showing the 'proof of fire sequence' is working correctly, given that your last comment that 'the stove ended up turning itself off'.

Does the green light come on in your control box after your initial drop of pellets have ignited, which then should start the auger feeding again about every 6 secs, and then the red light should come on in the control box once your thermo-couple senses that your fire pot flame has reached 600 F temp. All those lights are working in sequence OK ?

Check all that stuff, Dwig, and post back, and we'll keep trying to help you figure out what's up with your stove, OK ? At the very least, doing all this 'rule out' of stove issues will help make you a more educated and informed pellet stove owner, for when you 'do battle' with your dealer / installer on why your new stove isn't running right !

Regards.

 

[kappel15]

You can also check your control box and see what number it is on. It should be on 6. And if you are not getting enough fuel, it can be adjusted to 7. Just make sure you do not remove or install a control box without unplugging stove first or you will toast it. kap

 

[Dwig]

Hey DMKNLD,

Thanks for sticking with me on this! To answer your questions:

(1) I had the hopper empty today and got in there to get a good look at the feed gate. The gate is definitely 100% clear of the opening. In fact, I was a little disappointed to see that the gate cleared the opening by about a half inch, meaning that the last half inch in the range of adjustment is basically useless.

(2) I do not have an OAK.

(3) The dealer did the vent and install. The dealer sealed up the flue tight around the vent with metal pieces and insulation.

(4) The vent is 4 inches. My EVL should be about 20-25 feet, which is the length of my chimney. There aren't any elbows.

(5) I don't know if there is an obstruction in the venting somewhere.

(6) Baffle and firebox plates all seated correctly.

(7) Firepot trap door and holes all clean and clear. Also, as the problem started at the very beginning, when the stove was brand new, anything being dirty is likely not the problem.

(8) Control box lights all appear to be functioning well. It is currently set to 5, the +10% setting. I think the stove was shutting off on medium because it was't registering enough heat?

I like your air flow theory. This could also explain why the combustion blower is making more noise than I would expect. It would be trying to draw more air than it is able to. Just a thought.

One thing which was weird - the first time I removed the right firebox plate, I found a small pile of sticky black rice-shaped beads. Rat poop? I just vacuumed it out and thought nothing of it. But I wonder if there's more of that stuff in the exhaust system.

Another thought I just had. Just a few days after I got the stove, I pulled the stove out a bit - probably only about 6 inches, to get a look at the combustion blower, which was rattling. It turned out that the thumb screw holding it down had come loose. I couldn't pull the stove out anymore because of the vent. I've since slid the stove out a few more times to check things. I wonder if I could have pulled the vent loose from my chimney cap. I never really yanked it, but who knows. In that case, the vent would not be going all the way up and out of the chimney. I'll have to check this tomorrow when it's light out. I think this is unlikely though because the flame height wasn't right even in the first few days. I would also expect smoke coming into the house if that were the case.

Thanks!

Dwig

 

[DMKNLD]

Good to know that all that stuff checks out - figuring out what's wrong, especially over a forum thread, seems to be 95% first figuring out what isn't wrong !

I'm certainly not the Insert 'go to guy', but typically it sounds like insert folks use 4" flex pipe for the connection to the stove, which allows for some slack in the system and to give room to pull the stove out from the opening to clean it.

If your stove - to - vent connection became separated when you pulled your stove out, then yes, you would be 'smoked out',so that probably isn't the problem.

But a rat / mouse nest in your exhaust plenum could certainly obstruct your airflow ! Perhaps your stove sat in a storage area before your dealer installed it, and a Rattus rattus or a Mus musculus set up residence in there?

Sounds like you need to pull the whole stove out to access the back, and stick your vacuum hose into the exhaust opening into the 'bowels' of the stove to make sure it is clear.

Hang in there, Dwig, you'll get it running right !

 

[kappel15]

I would be calling your dealer and telling him about the rat crap, and that there may be issues since your stove isn't running right. I would have him try and clean it out, not you. I would also tell him if he can't get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time, to replace it, or return your money. kap

 

[Lake Girl]

I'm with kap on his assessment ... get the dealer there and have him go over it. Did he fire it up while there or just installed and walked away...

 

[tjnamtiw]

I agree with Kap. Enough tinkering. Get the dealer out there and make him earn his profit.
With 20 feet of vertical pipe, your EVL is 10 feet. I used 17 feet of 3" with not problems at all. I'd have a look at the termination cap too. Who knows. If they missed a pile of mouse crap, they could have missed insulation that got blown up the flue and clogged the screen. Crazier things have happened.
If you aren't getting enough pellets to keep the fire going, another possibility is that the capacitor on the feed motor is bad from the get go and is letting the auger turn backwards sometimes or the auger is so tight that it reverses.

ADD: My combustion blowers make no noticeable noise. None. I'd pop the flue off at the quick disconnect and run it briefly AFTER A GOOD CLEANING! See if the noise is still there. The exhaust points straight up so the mess would/should be minimal. Another thing they could do would be to drill a small hole in the body or feed a tube in through one of the burn pot holes to get a manometer reading to see if you have airflow.

ADD ADD: Do you have unburned pellets in the firepot? Did I ask that before? That red oil is a mystery to me unless you were sold a stove with a 'HISTORY' from another owner who had the same problem......... If the auger is tight, perhaps when it gets hotter, it gets even tighter which results in the motor reversing. Someone may have put oil on it in a lame attempt to free it up.

 

[kappel15]

The AE will reverse to try and unjam itself, but the other Quad stoves don't have that capability. But if the capacitor is bad, it will reverse. You could time the auger feeds, or feel if the auger is reversing, but that is why the dealer should be back there to do. kap

 

[Dwig]

Thanks all!

So I pulled the exhaust pipe off this morning to see if the back end of the exhaust was clear. And it was - no rat poop. So that wasn't the problem.

As for the combustion blower noise - thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy! I knew it shouldn't be making a noticeable noise. When I had the stove out this morning, I spun the combustion blower with my finger and noticed that all three of the fans were wobbling. I noticed this exact same thing with first combustion blower that they replaced. This seems like unacceptably poor workmanship to me, especially since it's happened twice!

I do not have unburned pellets in the firepot. In fact, the firepot generally remains very clean - all of the ash ends up flying out and resting outside the firepot. I usually just open the trap door and a little bit of ash falls down into the ashpan. Only once did I actually have to chisel anything out. I was thinking about this fact this morning - if the problem was air flow, I would expect to have a lazy flame, unburnt pellets, etc. But the flame flickers pretty well. Which leads back to an auger issue.

I'll definitely hound the dealer. I started taking things into my own hands when the dealer repair guy didn't have informed answers to my questions. But it's time for me to start expecting more from them.

 

[kappel15]

Tell him to bring a new control box along with that new comb. fan. Just to see. He can also bring a capacitor jumper if he checks the auger and it is turning backwards sometimes. kap