Has anyone done the "Cryo" thing to their chains? We send our band saw blades to be cryo'ed, and it does help in longevity- but that's cutting metal. The Cryo guy told me a pro- faller had a few chains done. Went from downing 1 acre to 4, after the treatment. Anybody try it?
Cryogenic treatment for chains?
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If the feller went from 1 to 4 acres on one chain after cryo he ain't no pro
!! Cryo guy is full of BS! Not sayin cryo don't work , just sayin feller sucks or cryo guy is BS'n.
!! Cryo guy is full of BS! Not sayin cryo don't work , just sayin feller sucks or cryo guy is BS'n.Entirely possible, on both counts. That's why I'm askin'. The cost for 1 chain is $15 for the treatment. Now, I've had rifle barrels and actions treated in the past, and have nothing negative to report, and some very positive results after the process (yeah, used to build them). But chains? I don't know.
There are prolly 50 mills within a 50 mile radius of me. I deal with many of them and don't know of one that uses cryo on their saws. I've seen it liberally advertised so I'm sure mill owners are aware of the process but can't honestly say that I have heard anyone talk about it.
Ask around and let me know. I don't cut enough clean wood, that I'd ever know the difference. Thanks.
definiteLEE said:If the feller went from 1 to 4 acres on one chain after cryo he ain't no pro
I would agree BS!
My .02...it can help...a little bit...possibly.
To qualify all that - The basic premise of cryo treating is [very basic, but should give a general idea]: When the steel is initially heated and quenched to develop the hardness, the heating turns the steel into a structure called austenite - quenching forms a structure called martensite. But quenching some steels to room temperature may not turn all of the austenite into martensite. This is called 'retained austenite'. Over time some of this retained austenite will transform into martensite but one way to make it transform quickly is to continue the cooling process to ~ -300° F at which point most any austenite is transformed to martensite.
Now there are several kickers:
1) How much austenite is 'retained'? Generally not much - on the order of single digit percents, maybe 10 or 12% at the upper limit. Consequently, changing that last bit of austenite to martensite generally won't have a huge impact on the steel wear resistance. It may extend cutting life by roughly the same amount...10-12% Definitely NOT 4-5 or 10X as some claim. Though in a production setting, 10-12% longer life from an uber expensive piece of equipment might not be considered trivial.
2) Does the steel even have any retained austenite to begin with? Some will, some don't - depends a bit on the alloy. Usually the high alloy tool steels and high carbon steels will retain more than the plain jane alloys. Most low carbon steels won't have much at all.
3) Sounds like this is all good and no bad? Well - we'll ignore the fact cryotreating a chain probably costs about as much as buying a new chain but may only increase life by a few dozen percent. One other down side is martensite is a hard brittle phase of steel (think of snapping off the blade of a knife). Transforming the austenite to martensite means you could be making the steel harder and more brittle at the same time. So wear resistance may be increased, but tendency for catastrophic failure may be increased as well.
So bottom line - if your chain has retained austenite and you have it cryotreated, you might see a slight increase in wear resistance but also a slightly greater possibility of snapping a tooth off. It was quoted $15 to treat a chain. Most chains also run in the 15-20 range for a replacement. I seriously doubt the treatment would double the life of the chain so the only savings would be a slight reduction in the number of sharpenings. But this would only come into play in a full production setting - and there again even if it increased use by 50% - instead of a quick touch-up at every gas refill, you'd bee looking at stopping 1/2 way through the next tank for sharpening - which would mean stopping 50% more often.
PS - The initial development of cryo treatment was due to the fact austenite and martensie take up physically different volumes of space. Over time a precision piece of steel will deform due to stresses from the change volume. Hence the use for precision machinery, highly accurate rifle barrels, etc.
To qualify all that - The basic premise of cryo treating is [very basic, but should give a general idea]: When the steel is initially heated and quenched to develop the hardness, the heating turns the steel into a structure called austenite - quenching forms a structure called martensite. But quenching some steels to room temperature may not turn all of the austenite into martensite. This is called 'retained austenite'. Over time some of this retained austenite will transform into martensite but one way to make it transform quickly is to continue the cooling process to ~ -300° F at which point most any austenite is transformed to martensite.
Now there are several kickers:
1) How much austenite is 'retained'? Generally not much - on the order of single digit percents, maybe 10 or 12% at the upper limit. Consequently, changing that last bit of austenite to martensite generally won't have a huge impact on the steel wear resistance. It may extend cutting life by roughly the same amount...10-12% Definitely NOT 4-5 or 10X as some claim. Though in a production setting, 10-12% longer life from an uber expensive piece of equipment might not be considered trivial.
2) Does the steel even have any retained austenite to begin with? Some will, some don't - depends a bit on the alloy. Usually the high alloy tool steels and high carbon steels will retain more than the plain jane alloys. Most low carbon steels won't have much at all.
3) Sounds like this is all good and no bad? Well - we'll ignore the fact cryotreating a chain probably costs about as much as buying a new chain but may only increase life by a few dozen percent. One other down side is martensite is a hard brittle phase of steel (think of snapping off the blade of a knife). Transforming the austenite to martensite means you could be making the steel harder and more brittle at the same time. So wear resistance may be increased, but tendency for catastrophic failure may be increased as well.
So bottom line - if your chain has retained austenite and you have it cryotreated, you might see a slight increase in wear resistance but also a slightly greater possibility of snapping a tooth off. It was quoted $15 to treat a chain. Most chains also run in the 15-20 range for a replacement. I seriously doubt the treatment would double the life of the chain so the only savings would be a slight reduction in the number of sharpenings. But this would only come into play in a full production setting - and there again even if it increased use by 50% - instead of a quick touch-up at every gas refill, you'd bee looking at stopping 1/2 way through the next tank for sharpening - which would mean stopping 50% more often.
PS - The initial development of cryo treatment was due to the fact austenite and martensie take up physically different volumes of space. Over time a precision piece of steel will deform due to stresses from the change volume. Hence the use for precision machinery, highly accurate rifle barrels, etc.
cozy heat- Very informative. Your "PS" line really set the hook. Makes sense, as the most nominal benefit to some of the rifles I've worked on, was a reduction in fouling. I'm convinced, chains are to be labeled a "consumable" item, and possibly a tax write-off, depending on your accountant. I-Likeee :cheese:
Thought I'd revive this year-old thread to see if anyone has any more recent input. I just heard about these. The guy said it's not great for those who like to "touch up" the chain a lot, as it make sharpening harder. But he says they do hold an edge longer.
Cryogenics
Sir, I did a collage report on this topic.I also made a post on it in another forum and was ridiculed harshly for it.Are you aware that certain knives are treated with this? Certain brands like Scharaid, Uncle Henry and certain Buck knifes have had it. I would not be afraid to have it done, Ken
(broken link removed to http://www.cryoplus.com/sawmills.html)
Sir, I did a collage report on this topic.I also made a post on it in another forum and was ridiculed harshly for it.Are you aware that certain knives are treated with this? Certain brands like Scharaid, Uncle Henry and certain Buck knifes have had it. I would not be afraid to have it done, Ken
(broken link removed to http://www.cryoplus.com/sawmills.html)
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