Hi I am new to this and have read alot. I am in the process of designing a home to build in about a year. I have decided on a radiant heating system and wood furnace. I only know what I have read about both. I have acess to plenty of wood and two large stainless steel milk tanks for water storage. I have been looking at the EKO equipment and that seems to be the way to go. Is there any advice anyone can give as far as layout or anything else during my desing process?
designing a home, need heating advice
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I dream of a small open style house with a big wood stove in the center, brick floors that are warmed by sunlight during the day and a solar electric system for most of my electric needs.
Someday. . .
Someday. . .
design the radiant to operate at the lowest possible temperatures. If it is a slab on grade run the calcs at various tube spacing to get the required supply as low as possible. 2" minimun below slab and edge insulation for slab radiant. By doing this you could charge the milk tank storage to 180F and use it down to perhaps 95- 100F. that give you a huge delta t to leverage, and long "coast" times.
If it is a dry system, installed under the subfloor, use extruded aluminum transfer plates.
Check out the system Roth offers for above floor installation. Warmboard is a great product for radiant on framed floors. A very substantial subfloor and an excellent radiant emitter with solid aluminum surface.
Consider a solar component. 45-50% solar fraction for SDHW is possible most anywhere and puts you in the Federal rebate program.
Passive solar, if possible, is a very wise way to harness solar energy. Modern motorized window coverings make this a much more control-able heating technology.
Allow enough space for mechanical, both to install and service.
Crunch the numbers before you start. Do load calcs with various insulation options.
Spend the best money on building an efficient shell. we are seeing heat loads in the low teens per square foot on SIP and ICF homes. They barely need a heating systems with those loads!
Unless it is a concrete slab, my next home will use panel radiators for better response, better zoning, etc. Radiant in the bathrooms of course, possible the kitchen floor also.
hr
If it is a dry system, installed under the subfloor, use extruded aluminum transfer plates.
Check out the system Roth offers for above floor installation. Warmboard is a great product for radiant on framed floors. A very substantial subfloor and an excellent radiant emitter with solid aluminum surface.
Consider a solar component. 45-50% solar fraction for SDHW is possible most anywhere and puts you in the Federal rebate program.
Passive solar, if possible, is a very wise way to harness solar energy. Modern motorized window coverings make this a much more control-able heating technology.
Allow enough space for mechanical, both to install and service.
Crunch the numbers before you start. Do load calcs with various insulation options.
Spend the best money on building an efficient shell. we are seeing heat loads in the low teens per square foot on SIP and ICF homes. They barely need a heating systems with those loads!
Unless it is a concrete slab, my next home will use panel radiators for better response, better zoning, etc. Radiant in the bathrooms of course, possible the kitchen floor also.
hr
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
location of boiler. Some of these models smoke alot when opening, which can be less of a hassle once you learn when to reload. For most people a little smoke in house isn't much of a problem, but if you can avoid it all together, the better. Some models are setting up their draft fan so very little smoke(maybe none?) will come out the door when opening, that was one thing attracted me to the Innova by tarm. But I haven't got it hooked up, but that was the sales pitch.
As pointed out insulate under slab really good.
As pointed out insulate under slab really good.
WoodNotOil
Minister of Fire
I agree with all of the above. Radiant is definitely the way to go. I would also say that ideally the boiler should be in the basement or in a boiler room off of an attached garage that way heatloss stays within the heated structure and you don't have to go outdoors to checkon/fill the boiler. Also a walkout basement or pallet size entry into boiler room is perfect. I have a buddy who straps his wood on pallets and uses forks on his tractor and then a pallet jack in his walkout basement to put the wood right next to his bioler. Very little mess and only stacks it once.
You may want to consider Tarm and Woodgun so that you will have integral oil/gas backup. With the eko you'll need an additional fossil boiler.
Having the boiler in a seperate building has advantages: stack it once, no indoor smoke, fire risk or mess, short chimney. Walking out to fill it is not a big deal to me. The disadvantage is heat loss.
Definitely radiant if you intend to have storage.
Don't skimp on insulation -go above & beyond. As mentioned -SIP's & ICF's worth considering, also urethane spray foam.
Having the boiler in a seperate building has advantages: stack it once, no indoor smoke, fire risk or mess, short chimney. Walking out to fill it is not a big deal to me. The disadvantage is heat loss.
Definitely radiant if you intend to have storage.
Don't skimp on insulation -go above & beyond. As mentioned -SIP's & ICF's worth considering, also urethane spray foam.
Thanks for all the great info. I do have another question. Does anyone believe a wood boiler will give off enough heat to heat a finished basement. I am wondering if I need to put heat in the basement, or if the boiler alone can do the job.
If you have an open basement with no partition walls the radiant heat from the boiler will heat it nicely. My section of basement (which is half the house) that the boiler is in stays at 72. I envy your situation, design it right the first time.
CowboyAndy
New Member
I am not sure yet about putting the heating system in a seperate room. Its to nice to cover up. Is it a good idea to build some kind of catch basin around the water tank. Just in case. Maybe a knee wall made of blocks.
I built an ICF home and I have not been sorry a single day! I have lot of friends now building them. If you build an energy effieicent home and install the radiant heat, you will be happy.
Thanks
Thanks
captaintone said:
I think ALL indoor boilers and tanks should have a gravity drain in the floor right under the unit.
What a great opportunity - fun stuff! My two cents:
1. radiant floor heat for sure (google "constant circulation", "variable speed / pressure pumps" and "john siegenthaler"
2. heat the basement slab too and, as mentioned, do not skimp on under slab insulation
3. keep in mind that you want your system to operate at as low a water temp as possible when considering floor coverings (more tile and stone, less carpet and wood)
4. gasification wood boiler with storage and a mod/con LP or NG boiler for back up.
5. ICF shell both below grade AND above grade.
6. If you utilize a highly efficient shell, you may be able to heat the place with a small dog! - even the smallest wood boilers will be grossly oversized, so you will have to include storage from the outset.
7. If your house is relatively small (the most important step towards energy efficiency) and well insulated and tight, the standby losses from your tank and boiler system may over heat your basement, so I would recommend a separate insulated boiler room and maximum insulation on the tank(s).
8. You have a great opportunity to incorporate wood storage and handling in your floorplan design.
9. Spend time on this forum, there is a huge knowledge and experience base here and people are very generous with their time and advice.
10. Get the heating system designed and installed by a highly qualified contractor who specializes in hydronic / radiant systems.
have fun!
1. radiant floor heat for sure (google "constant circulation", "variable speed / pressure pumps" and "john siegenthaler"
2. heat the basement slab too and, as mentioned, do not skimp on under slab insulation
3. keep in mind that you want your system to operate at as low a water temp as possible when considering floor coverings (more tile and stone, less carpet and wood)
4. gasification wood boiler with storage and a mod/con LP or NG boiler for back up.
5. ICF shell both below grade AND above grade.
6. If you utilize a highly efficient shell, you may be able to heat the place with a small dog! - even the smallest wood boilers will be grossly oversized, so you will have to include storage from the outset.
7. If your house is relatively small (the most important step towards energy efficiency) and well insulated and tight, the standby losses from your tank and boiler system may over heat your basement, so I would recommend a separate insulated boiler room and maximum insulation on the tank(s).
8. You have a great opportunity to incorporate wood storage and handling in your floorplan design.
9. Spend time on this forum, there is a huge knowledge and experience base here and people are very generous with their time and advice.
10. Get the heating system designed and installed by a highly qualified contractor who specializes in hydronic / radiant systems.
have fun!
steam man
Minister of Fire
If you want to go the "Rolls Royce" of green design, look over the Leed's certification for green building design. I would bet this will be the new way of building for energy efficiency.
http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CategoryID=19
Mike
http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CategoryID=19
Mike
a floor drain near the boiler. Catches any spills and a good way to clean up around the boiler.
Elevate it on blocks to ease clean out and service.
I installed a residential fire sprinkler head above my indoor EKO.
Combustion air vents to the outside.
A smoke alarm and a CO detector in the room.
A large door to bring in wood.
A chopping block to split kindling.
hr
Elevate it on blocks to ease clean out and service.
I installed a residential fire sprinkler head above my indoor EKO.
Combustion air vents to the outside.
A smoke alarm and a CO detector in the room.
A large door to bring in wood.
A chopping block to split kindling.
hr
If I were to do it again. I would focus more on super insulating the house. Walls would R-30+ and ceilings would be R-60+. Triple pane windows argon filled. Tape all seams in your sheathing. Before your sheet rocker shows up make sure there is insulation behind your electrical outlets and switches. Try to get you infultration down to .10 Air changes per hour. You will need an Energy Recovery Unit but you will always have fresh are in the house. And radaint floor heat with outdoor reset is the way to go.
I'm heating 4k [] with pex radiant.
Go extra thick on the basement slab and put tubes in it. If the power goes out that will stay warm a long time.
Keep the bugs, smoke, mess out of the residence.
Control stand-by losses. A large storage inside the house for the heating season. A smaller storage outside for DHW (wood and/or solar) durring summer.
One thing I would have done differently here would have been to go with a Viessman 200 and an inexpensive oil backup. I would have put the wood-fired hydronic in a concrete room attached to the basement. But my wood isn't always the best MC so the GreenWood actually works out pretty good.
If you actually have money to build in this economy, congratulations!! Wait a while until prices come down more (material AND labor).
Go extra thick on the basement slab and put tubes in it. If the power goes out that will stay warm a long time.
Keep the bugs, smoke, mess out of the residence.
Control stand-by losses. A large storage inside the house for the heating season. A smaller storage outside for DHW (wood and/or solar) durring summer.
One thing I would have done differently here would have been to go with a Viessman 200 and an inexpensive oil backup. I would have put the wood-fired hydronic in a concrete room attached to the basement. But my wood isn't always the best MC so the GreenWood actually works out pretty good.
If you actually have money to build in this economy, congratulations!! Wait a while until prices come down more (material AND labor).
I have a large ICF home (4600 sf) with an 11 zone radiant floor NG instantaneous boiler (no wood boiler yet). I spend less than $800 year on heating. We may not be northern maine but we routinely are below zero with big winds (which really can suck the heat out). I absolutely love everything except for 2 things;
1. ICF homes magnify how "bad" windows loss your heat. I have double pane argon filled windows and they defineatly are the week link. Try to make then small on the windy side of the house or buy top of the line triple pane windows.
2. I used gypcrete overtop of pex tubing on the floor. Yuck. It heavily limits floor coverings and still weighs alot (read that as extra joist and load baring walls). Spend the extra money (slightly more money) and use Warmboard.
By the way my electric bills in the hot months of summer are around $150 total. A 1.5 ton air conditioner (which I'm told is the size of a large window unit) cools my entire house on all but 4 to 5 days per year.
Which ever way you go, if you plan alot for energy conservation you will NEVER be disappointed. Good luck!
1. ICF homes magnify how "bad" windows loss your heat. I have double pane argon filled windows and they defineatly are the week link. Try to make then small on the windy side of the house or buy top of the line triple pane windows.
2. I used gypcrete overtop of pex tubing on the floor. Yuck. It heavily limits floor coverings and still weighs alot (read that as extra joist and load baring walls). Spend the extra money (slightly more money) and use Warmboard.
By the way my electric bills in the hot months of summer are around $150 total. A 1.5 ton air conditioner (which I'm told is the size of a large window unit) cools my entire house on all but 4 to 5 days per year.
Which ever way you go, if you plan alot for energy conservation you will NEVER be disappointed. Good luck!
rowerwet
Minister of Fire
I would do the OWB and put your storage in the basement in its own room. put a fan on the room with a thermostat to heat the rest of the basement. Other wise radiant heat all the way, maybe one of those under counter water to air heaters for the bathroom for after the shower instead of electric heater.
sweetheat
Member
Tarm with storage and radiant in slab on grade for sure, and as tight as one can build it, but not so tight you have to mechanically remove or introduce fresh air. this relys on power to move air. my alternative builtout wall in this order. 2x6 spruce on all roof and wall surfaces, dupont tyvek, 2x4 framing 24" OC. 3" dow ridged Styrofoam pressed tight to each stud, foam around electrical boxes and switches, 5/8 cdx fir plywood, another layer of dupont tyvek, eastern white cedar shingles 5" to the weather. no call backs on any of these homes.
you can heat it with a small dog! sweetheat
you can heat it with a small dog! sweetheat
Thank you all for the great information. I guess there is a lot more to consider than I thought. Thats why I am planning about a year ahead of time. I read a few suggestions to build an ICF home. I don't know what that is. Can anyone explain further. Also does anyone think going with 8" exterior walls is overkill for insulation?
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
google" icf homes" Found a link on the first page. Just had to do the same thing. Didn't have a clue what it was.
WILDSOURDOUGH
New Member
captaintone said:
Wife and I built our home in 06-08. Moved 'upstairs' to finished home in Feb. 2008. It is 4500'+ ICF walkout Foundation with SIP Ranch main floor. Looks like a Big Log Home w/ half log siding- but with SIP panels, you can make it look like anything you want. I designed it for Radient heat in 'basement' slab--- no heating at all on main floor. Kitchen, bedrooms, LR, laundry, baths, etc....no heating appliences or fixtures on the main floor- it's all heated by the basement slab!
We live in a small, country town where wood is plentyful and cheap- or free. Elevation here is 1450', and I am in an open field- so it gets plenty cold and windy.
My criteria for building was-
1. Super-insulation
2. Wood heat- OWB 100' from the house ( have a Lopi Leyden in basement- used for amibeance and a backup, like the ice storm last month with power gone for a few days. Stove rated for <2000 sq ft heats this whole house of 4500+)
3. Large open floorplan built with ADA guidelines- ( no thresholds, leavers not doorknobs, 36" doors...)
How's it work for us after a year...
Fantastic ! It is truly admazing how little heat is required to keep the house very warm. The basement is a little too hot- the window by the walkout doors is always cracked open a little- and the slab is usually between 90 and 110 degrees, too hot to stand on for long times. We followed the advice of Radientec in Vermont and insulated under the slab with insulated bubble wrap, 2" pink board, the wire mesh for the concrete and tied our 1800' of 3/4" PEX to that, before the concrete pour. Also leaving a thermal break at the wall junctions and an uninsulated 30% 'heatsink' in the center.
We could not be happier- Wife's mother (91 Year old) moved in Feb 08 with us... I have not heard her or wife complain of being cold... in fact, mother came out of bedroom to breakfast this morning in her nightgown, and wife is in tee shirt and no shoes- in January.
My sugesstions- Research, Super Insulation ( it's the cheapest form of heat) and wood heat, if it is viable for you.
Wow thats amazing. I have somewhat of a design so far. the main floor will mostly open, besides a master br and childs room. There will also be a vaulted ceiling to the second floor with two more bedrooms and a full bath. I thought about a wood stove on the main floor to heat the lv,kit,din and most of the second floor. I plan plan on four zones for the home. one in the basement, two the master bedroom, childs room and two bathrooms, three kit, din,liv and four the second floor. I have started to look into ICF homes. I havent been able to find and exact price. I found a place out of Texas that states the cost is about four more dollars per square foot to bulid an ICF house vs a stick built. I find it hard to believe. Especially coming from NY. Does anyone know an average cost?
find a contractor in your area who specializes in ICF and I would expect that they will tell you that ICF is comparable to stick built. The guys who still don't have much experience with ICF will quote the job higher because of the learning curve. I put an ICF basement under an existing older home and heard from several sources that while the material is more expensive, the labor is significantly less (no stripping forms, etc.) so the end result is a comparable cost (at least for a foundation/basement). Given the benefits, ICF construction is worth more, so if you have to pay a bit more than stick built, I would say it's money well spent.
On another note, I would recommend separate zones for your bathrooms - especially if they are tile floors. I did that in my own home and keep the thermostat a bit higher in there and really enjoy stepping out of the shower onto a warm floor. Stuff dries more quickly too. I will probably add a programable thermostat so that the bathroom floor zone calls a bit before shower time so the floors are nice and toasty at just the right time.
General advice - I am sure you are already aware - while all of us have a budget, spend the money on a really good envelope and mechanical systems up front. If this means putting off finishing the basement or the second bath, its a choice you will not regret.
On another note, I would recommend separate zones for your bathrooms - especially if they are tile floors. I did that in my own home and keep the thermostat a bit higher in there and really enjoy stepping out of the shower onto a warm floor. Stuff dries more quickly too. I will probably add a programable thermostat so that the bathroom floor zone calls a bit before shower time so the floors are nice and toasty at just the right time.
General advice - I am sure you are already aware - while all of us have a budget, spend the money on a really good envelope and mechanical systems up front. If this means putting off finishing the basement or the second bath, its a choice you will not regret.
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