Dirty Burn Has Me Flummoxed

[blwells45]

I have a 55-TRP22 and have been problems getting a clean burn. I am burning Somersets. I will totally clean my stove and it will burn clean for 8 to 10 hours. Then, the burn pot will start filling up and soon the window is covered by a layer of black soot. I have played around with the settings on the unit, trying additional air (raising LBA) as well as lowering the feed level. What I have found is if I drop the feed rate below 5, the flame goes out. So, I have tried running it on a setting of 5-5-1 with a heat setting of 1 and blower setting of 3. I have raised the LBA as high as 9 with no discernible difference.

I've called tech support twice. The first time, they had me make some tweaks to the feed settings. Said I might need a control board. The second time, they said that a dirty burn is an airflow problem and to check gaskets etc. or it might be a pellet problem. Since I've got the Somersets, I figured, there's no way its the pellets. I checked gaskets by doing the dollar bill test on the door. Used a lighter to see if there was any leaks that would pull the flame around the windows or the hopper lid. I checked to make sure the hopper latches were tight. Everything seemed to check out right. So, on a whim, I decided to try a different pellet. I had a couple of bags of McFeeters. So, I stopped the stove once the pellets were just about gone, cleaned it really well. And started running the McFeeters through it.

What a difference. First, I found that the McFeeters were a larger pellet. Seems like there of a larger diameter. But, they also seem to be longer pellets as well on average than the Somersets. And so, while I'm not sure if the size was the issue, it seems like they fed MUCH slower than the Somersets. And, so for two days, burning the McFeeters not only did the burn pot not fill up. But, the glass only got a slightly yellowish hue to it. But, very faint. And I could see through it the whole time. So, this morning, I loaded up with the Somersets. By the time I got home, the hopper was almost empty, burn pot is full, and the window is covered with soot.

Anyone have any thoughts?

(BTW, it doesn't seem to me that the McFeeters put out the BTU's that the Somersets do. But, they smell good. REALLY REALLY good.)

 

[jrsdws]

Pellet size of McFeeters causing a lower feed delivery, thus the stove can keep up with it and burn them complete. This also explains your perception that they are giving off less heat.

I think without a doubt, you have an airflow problem.

How long has the stove been installed? Was it new or used?

The exhaust path has at least a partial obstruction most likely. Lots of people miss spots.

Do a forum search for any Englander stove and there are numerous posts like this.

My bet is the venting needs cleaned or some smaller passages in the exhaust path have ash build up on or in them restricting airflow.

 

[fmsm]

My Harman's glass starts to blacken up after 10 minutes, I have tried all the "premium" pellets and have the same issue with every pellet EXCEPT for the McFeeters. The stove has been professionally installed, checked, and cleaned.

Maybe size does matter?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

How long have you owned that unit and did you get it new or used?

Have you ever heard of the leaf blower trick?

Have you ever disassembled any of the stove for cleaning?

 

[fmsm]

How long have you owned that unit and did you get it new or used?

Have you ever heard of the leaf blower trick?

Have you ever disassembled any of the stove for cleaning?

My stove was purchased new and professionally installed. It is one year old and I paid the installation company to clean it. I have every confidence in this company as they took everything apart for the cleaning. The only thing they didn't do was the LBT

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

My stove was purchased new and professionally installed. It is one year old and I paid the installation company to clean it. I have every confidence in this company as they took everything apart for the cleaning. The only thing they didn't do was the LBT

Not your stove the OP's stove.

 

[blwells45]

Smokey, it's a refurb stove that I bought from Andy that I installed in October. I've heard of the leaf blower trick, but wouldn't think I'd need to do that this quickly. I have not disassembled the stove for cleaning since it is a refurb (and from my conversations from Mike this basically means it is a new stove, since they tear them down and rebuild them from the ground up.)

Also, to give you some idea of how it was installed, I did install the OAK. And, the venting was done with a new duravent pipe kit. Corner install, so I've got a 45, 1.5 feet of horizontal run through the thimble to 3 feet of vertical to a 90 with the cap. Not sure what other information might be helpful or what else I should do to try to get this to burn cleaner.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Smokey, it's a refurb stove that I bought from Andy that I installed in October. I've heard of the leaf blower trick, but wouldn't think I'd need to do that this quickly. I have not disassembled the stove for cleaning since it is a refurb (and from my conversations from Mike this basically means it is a new stove, since they tear them down and rebuild them from the ground up.)

Also, to give you some idea of how it was installed, I did install the OAK. And, the venting was done with a new duravent pipe kit. Corner install, so I've got a 45, 1.5 feet of horizontal run through the thimble to 3 feet of vertical to a 90 with the cap. Not sure what other information might be helpful or what else I should do to try to get this to burn cleaner.

How many bags have you put through the stove and what pellets were they?

Is that venting 3" or 4" and is your horizontal run going up grade from the stove and through the thimble?

Some (ain't that right Dexter?) will argue with me but based on several tables I've seen you are at or over the limit for 3" pipe and if your location has any altitude or there is any breeze entering the vent but not the OAK and that the pellets burned produce a lot of ash you might be suffering from good ole ash in the plumbing restricting your air flow.

I count your EVL as follows 45 horizontal 5 or 6, 1.5 feet horizontal 1.5 making it 6.5 or 7.5, 90 degree to go up 5 making it 11.5 or 12.5, 3 feet vertical 1.5 making it 12.5 or 13.5, 90 degree bend to go to cap 5 making it 17.5 or 18.5. now if I don't take into account the orientation of the 45 you end up with either 15 or 15.5.

Any down slope in the horizontal or lean away from vertical in that vertical makes it even worse as does any real altitude.

If you start out with quite a bit of resistance in the vent system it takes very little ash to make a mess of things and once that happens you get even more ash. It is a choking spiral of oxygen deprivation for the stove.

 

[tsmith]

Are you burning since October? If so it needs a cleaning. I completelly clean mine every month, no matter how many pellets went through it. This includes the leaf blower trick.

 

[blwells45]

How many bags have you put through the stove and what pellets were they?

Is that venting 3" or 4" and is your horizontal run going up grade from the stove and through the thimble?

Some (ain't that right Dexter?) will argue with me but based on several tables I've seen you are at or over the limit for 3" pipe and if your location has any altitude or there is any breeze entering the vent but not the OAK and that the pellets burned produce a lot of ash you might be suffering from good ole ash in the plumbing restricting your air flow.

I count your EVL as follows 45 horizontal 5 or 6, 1.5 feet horizontal 1.5 making it 6.5 or 7.5, 90 degree to go up 5 making it 11.5 or 12.5, 3 feet vertical 1.5 making it 12.5 or 13.5, 90 degree bend to go to cap 5 making it 17.5 or 18.5. now if I don't take into account the orientation of the 45 you end up with either 15 or 15.5.

Any down slope in the horizontal or lean away from vertical in that vertical makes it even worse as does any real altitude.

If you start out with quite a bit of resistance in the vent system it takes very little ash to make a mess of things and once that happens you get even more ash. It is a choking spiral of oxygen deprivation for the stove.

Until I put the McFeeters through it, I had only burned Somersets. I have maybe put through 20 or 25 bags. Generally, they are not seen as an ashy pellet. So, I'm kind of finding it hard to believe that would be the case. Also, I've been very religious in my weekly cleanings. Shutting the stove down, vaccuuming it out, etc. Does the vent pipe need to be cleaned on a weekly/monthly basis as well?


My horizontal run is pretty much level. Not much rise, if at all. My OAK is right below the vent, so I would imagine any breezes that would impact the vent would be blowing through the OAK as well?

When I talked to the guys at Englander they seemed to think I was within the EVL limitations. I really tried to do everything "by the book". The only thing that I don't have is that rise in the horizontal run. The Duravent installation guide doesn't specify that which kind of ticks me off. I guess I'll unhook the outside pipe tomorrow, unhook the thimble on both sides and adjust to get some rise. Based on a foot and a half run, what do I need to raise it? I've seen 1/4 in. per foot. I've seen 1/2 in. per foot. Should I err on the side of caution and go higher?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

There must be a rise in all venting as it goes from the stove to termination, 1/4" per foot of run rise is the minimum ( 1/2 " is better) for horizontal sections.

What is going to happen with your setup is a lot of the ash is going to settle out in that restrictive horizontal portion of the venting.

There is also likely going to be quite a bit of ash where the termination cap is and if you have been turning the stove on and off a lot likely the clean out will also have a good amount in it as well.

Also the longer the outside portion of the vent is the lower the exit temperature will be, this results in condensation of volatiles and another portion of the ash (the very fine ash) to settle out.

I'd take a look at the termination cap and note the ash where the 90 degree turn is and drop the clean out cap and look at what drops out there and judge for yourself.

Cleaning is all ash level driven for your installation and what you are burning. 20 pounds (1% of a ton) of ash can be a very large pile and in a 3" pipe things go downhill fast at about the 1/8" layer point.

What you don't see in the firebox area is either in the exhaust channels of the stove, the venting, or is outdoors.

Now this is not to say there isn't something else also in the works gumming things up but it is where I'd start. Folks are usually quite surprised when they finally get around to looking at what is where with ash levels.

Also make certain the stove's controller is set to the proper burn mode.

If a pellet is denser than what you were burning usually the compensation would be to lower the fuel feed by one if it isn't burning up well. If this doesn't clean it up but the fire stays lit decrease the feed by one again. Then you can consider tweaking the burn air.

If it were me I'd have already had the stove off, a good cleaning done, and the rise in the vent taken care of, and depending upon what I saw in the venting I'd might even be springing for 4". Remember I'm home all that time except when I'm not so I have the time to be able to get to jobs like this.

 

[imacman]

Sounds like classic "dirty stove". Even though you seem to have not run too many pellets through, are you certain on the number of bags?? Memories can be wrong.....best to keep a log so you know when to clean the stove (around 1 ton).

To eliminate any issues with the stove being dirty, I'd recommend doing a deep cleaning. Clean the burn pot & pot liner holes, remove the impingement plate and clean behind that, open any ash traps and vacuum inside them, plus bang on the steel back wall with a mallet or small hammer....you'll see a lot of crud fall down.

Since the exhaust system has some horizontal to it, I'd get that cleaned out too. Using the leaf blower method AFTER doing all of the other cleaning will get almost all of any hidden ash, plus clean out the horizontal pipe too.

After all this is done, double check that the OAK is not clogged.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

When burning a good hardwood pellet I can start to see a change in the burn right around where you say you are. Starts with pile up in the middle, sides clear and eventually the whole pot. Softwoods for me don't really do this ...maybe because they burn a hair faster..not sure.....remedy is a good cleaning to include the LBT (every ton is ideal for me). I did it today after burning mostly Turmans and there was a lot if ash in the system......

 

[blwells45]

Bought a leaf blower and tried the leaf blower trick today. Don't think I got the seal I needed with the duct tape, but did get some stuff blown out. Due to some scheduling conflicts, I didn't have time to adjust the rise of the horizontal run. So, I'll try to attack that as well as get my blower modified better to do the LBT. Gave the stove a thorough cleaning and we'll see if I see an improvements.

BTW, I did the math and so far I've put 32 bags through it. It's not been very cold, so it's been a lot of stops and starts. And, when it's run, its been run on a 1/3 setting. Even at that setting, we're cooking most of the time. But, I do believe that from what I've read, the lower burn rates can result in higher ash build up leading to a dirty burn as well. I'm going to try to get through this winter on the 3" pipe (adding the rise in the horizontal run as soon as I can) and probably will upgrade to 4" pipe for next season.