Displaced and Needing Direction

[WarEagle]

Recently moved from Georgia to Indiana and cannot ever remember waking up to -12 degrees. Had the chimney cleaned yesterday and discussed options going forward for next season. A wood pellet insert was the recommendation for years of warmth ahead. However, concerns over electrical back up have me concerned as I travel and do not want to burden my wife with car batteries in the living room while I am gone if that is what it will require. I have been feverishly reading all I can find to find honest answers and not company fluff. I have some time to make the final decision as I will have the installation done over the Summer but I really would like some clarification as to the options when the power goes out and what models are best for these scenarios. I will continue to read posts here to continue to learn and appreciate any responses here with experience or direction for more info. Thanks-

 

[bags]

IMO the worries of electrical outages are slightly over rated. Here's why. It is rare that they last long and the home is not going to lose a bunch of heat before it is up and running again. That said, It is good to have a contingency plan in place. These temps can happen here but are not all that common. Maybe more so depending where you are in IN.

Yes, anything can happen but what is really likely to happen? I live out in the sticks and we get our fair share of outages, but it is not too big of a deal. I have wood burning backup and a kerosene heater IF it's out for long periods.

Listen to some others here also and the various points of view so you can tailor a solution to fit your needs. KEEP READING TOO!

Either way your wife may be burdened. Humping firewood in from the cold is not much of a trade off. Back up batteries can be placed in a rolling cart and pushed. Then some alligator clips and she's in business. There are many things to consider. I am sure you will have plenty of time to figure it out before next winter. Good Luck!

Let me add that me being out of town for work in the winter is a BIG reason I chose a pellet stove also. Forty pound stocked bags are MUCH easier for the wife. She was ready to kill me after last winter and dealing with firewood. Realistically electric can be a concern but it should be kept in perspective. I do not have a bunker in the back yard either. I shoot back!

 

[Peterfield]

Generator with electric start that runs off liquid propane tank for the one or two times you might need it through winter.

 

[Luv2burnPellets]

Backup batteries are best placed in the Basement under the pellet stove with the electric cord passing thru the floor, or an outlet customed designed and hooked up directly to the battery UPS below.

 

[bogieb]

Bags has some good words of wisdom there.

If you are that concerned about power outages and using batteries, you can use a generator. GOD, now other's are going to chime in about why would you use a pellet stove when you can run electric heaters off the generator - I have really done it this time

An option for not having batteries in the LR: If you have a basement under the living room, you can run the wires for the batteries down thru the floor. Of course if you don't have a basement, that would be tough.

I'm sure there are plenty of options that others will chime in with.

 

[alternativeheat]

I can only describe what I do and not get into details of what others do or why etc... When the power goes out I start the generator, go in the basement and hit the transfer switches from Line voltage to Gen voltage and go back upstairs till the power comes on. Period, that's it, go back to reading my bible or what ever else I was doing before the power went out. Now granted not every single thing is powered up while on the generator but enough plenty is to make life nice. While the generator is on the house is heated by the central heating system. And incidentally we had the generator before the pellet stove so life is as before pellets, except I then also had a coal stove I don't have to tend to now.

 

[bags]

Bags has some good words of wisdom there.

If you are that concerned about power outages and using batteries, you can use a generator. GOD, now other's are going to chime in about why would you use a pellet stove when you can run electric heaters off the generator - I have really done it this time

An option for not having batteries in the LR: If you have a basement under the living room, you can run the wires for the batteries down thru the floor. Of course if you don't have a basement, that would be tough.

I'm sure there are plenty of options that others will chime in with.

Like I said many options, variables and issues with no matter what. Off gassing batteries and all. Point is,,,,,,, it can be done. Batteries could be left on a tender out in the garage and rolled in IF needed too. I want all the debates Bogie so this fellow veteran (I assume) has a bunch of scenarios and options to work with.

 

[St_Earl]

a lightweight inverter generator could be a way to go as well if you and your wife are both comfortable with the process of manually setting it up in an outage.
i've never looked at the pricing for whole house units that are wired in and kick on automatically during outages.

keep fresh oil in the generator and see how many hours you can expect o run between oil changes.
as someone mentioned earlier, outages are more often than not pretty short lived events.

with house current or with a generator, always have a good surge suppressor in place to protect the stove's electronics.

generators are a whole topic unto themselves. but with portables it is usually the case that an inverter type provides safe electricity.
mine is not an inverter style, but has copper wound heads and total harmonic distortion of <5%

a safe bet is to get a honda, yamaha or any of several other brands of highly rated inverter models. (from earlier research, the generac inverters are made in china unlike that company's larger, highly regarded, american made models)

these are easy to lift and start. it's just filling them with gas and changing oil (after extended runs) that may factor in to your being comfortable with them for both you and your wife.
you can get larger gas tank add ons for most of these though.

 

[fire451]

if you are considering a battery backup,I would choose one that has a true sine wave. my Harman 52i will not run on a modified sine wave. I would also go with an inverter charger. and like others have said put it in your basement, the wires from your battery should be as short as possible to the inverter, the more batteries the longer your stove will run.

 

[WarEagle]

Thanks for all the responses to this point, I have been reading suggestions from other threads and have since been on a couple of sites looking at the Harman p35i and will continue with others. The electric start generator sounds like a viable option. We do not have a basement but we have a sunroom that is directly beside the fireplace for entry exit points for batteries/generators/etc. I really appreciate all the help and it feels quite encouraging an tells me that a moving in the right direction. With family safety and security on the line, I am glad to have found a source of so much information and a place to openly discuss concerns and questions.

 

[WarEagle]

Just exactly what parts are run by electricity in pellet inserts? Is it the auger, the starter and the blower?

 

[F4jock]

Just exactly what parts are run by electricity in pellet inserts? Is it the auger, the starter and the blower?

Yup. Also combustion blower. I have a Harman insert I wouldn't trade for anything and a propane powered genny sitting outside with 100 gallons of fuel that auto-starts ten seconds after a power outage and auto transfers eight seconds later. IMO if you want to do it right that's the way to go. Stove may go into brief shutdown mode but I have mine operating in auto-ignite and room temp mode and she kicks right back in when the temp falls.

 

[St_Earl]

there is also a control board in there using electricity.
though off topic, i'll reiterate the need for a good surge suppressor once you get your stove.

 

[xSpecBx]

If youre looking to not burden youre wife while I travel (I can appreciate this as I travel often as well) an electric start generator or a portable one with electric start would be a good idea. worst case you run the central heat when the power goes out

 

[Krogoski]

Backup power is kinda my shtick.

For the least hassle and automatic transfer a UPS would work well. The P35i has a running wattage (Power Factor not considered) of 180W. If we correct for mediocre Power Factor that makes it almost 250W.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1000XL This model plus one external battery from APC will run the insert for ~5 hours. The whole setup will cost around $1000, but the insert will never know the power has failed, fail-over occurs faster than you can blink. That UPS has a 1000VA capacity, so you can add a lamp and the entertainment center to the UPS as well, with a reduction of run time however. The ups also acts as Surge and Brownout protection. Increased run times can be easily obtained by adding additional external batteries.

Second option is a Genset. Permanently installed whole house units are nice, but overkill, and often cost more in maintenance than a portable model. The best bang for the buck in portables is the Yamaha EF series inverter generators. Honda has the market, no doubt, however Yamaha has a more serviceable unit, lower EMI and RFI figures, similar noise and fuel consumption at better price. The EF2000iS would happily putt along, very quietly, for 10 hours on a gallon of fuel running the insert and the entertainment.

I also like the UTS6 Automatic transfer switch from APC. http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=UTS6
It allows you to select up to 6 circuits to have backup on. The nice thing about the UTS6 is that you can connect the UPS (above) to the panel as well as a genset, and have it all tucked away wherever your house panel is located. So if you aren't home, the UPS powers loads until you do get home, then you can connect a genset. All automatically. There is also a very nice priority mode, meaning(hypothetical situation): You connect the refrigerator, 2xLiving room, and 2xBedroom circuits to the UTS. The insert is on 1 living room circuit. The kids are playing with the vacuum (IDK why, they are kids) in Bedroom 1. The UTS notices you are reaching the 1000VA limit of the UPS and disconnects Bedroom 1 until the loads reach a level the UPS or Genset can sustain. Living Room 1 (pellet insert) is never disconnected. You get all that love for $400. Not too bad considering the prices for some really cheesy manual transfer switches.

Take care,
Ken

 

[chken]

Backup power is kinda my shtick.

For the least hassle and automatic transfer a UPS would work well. The P35i has a running wattage (Power Factor not considered) of 180W. If we correct for mediocre Power Factor that makes it almost 250W.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1000XL This model plus one external battery from APC will run the insert for ~5 hours. The whole setup will cost around $1000, but the insert will never know the power has failed, fail-over occurs faster than you can blink. That UPS has a 1000VA capacity, so you can add a lamp and the entertainment center to the UPS as well, with a reduction of run time however. The ups also acts as Surge and Brownout protection. Increased run times can be easily obtained by adding additional external batteries.

Second option is a Genset. Permanently installed whole house units are nice, but overkill, and often cost more in maintenance than a portable model. The best bang for the buck in portables is the Yamaha EF series inverter generators. Honda has the market, no doubt, however Yamaha has a more serviceable unit, lower EMI and RFI figures, similar noise and fuel consumption at better price. The EF2000iS would happily putt along, very quietly, for 10 hours on a gallon of fuel running the insert and the entertainment.

I also like the UTS6 Automatic transfer switch from APC. http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=UTS6
It allows you to select up to 6 circuits to have backup on. The nice thing about the UTS6 is that you can connect the UPS (above) to the panel as well as a genset, and have it all tucked away wherever your house panel is located. So if you aren't home, the UPS powers loads until you do get home, then you can connect a genset. All automatically. There is also a very nice priority mode, meaning(hypothetical situation): You connect the refrigerator, 2xLiving room, and 2xBedroom circuits to the UTS. The insert is on 1 living room circuit. The kids are playing with the vacuum (IDK why, they are kids) in Bedroom 1. The UTS notices you are reaching the 1000VA limit of the UPS and disconnects Bedroom 1 until the loads reach a level the UPS or Genset can sustain. Living Room 1 (pellet insert) is never disconnected. You get all that love for $400. Not too bad considering the prices for some really cheesy manual transfer switches.

Take care,
Ken

Great info, but that APC UPS you linked costs over $600! I know it shows it has the capability to connect to additional battery packs, but still, that's over $600! I looked at the specs, but I didn't really see how that was any different than the CyberPower PFC1000 UPS I bought for $130. Mine is also pure sine, and has about the same 1000VA capacity, and has the line interactive, AVR, 1000 joules surge protection, etc. Is the differential just the ability to hook up additional battery packs?

 

[Krogoski]

I looked at the specs, but I didn't really see how that was any different than the CyberPower PFC1000

The Cyberpower unit has a single 12V, 9Ah battery. With the same load as stated in my post (250W) the run time would be 15-20 minutes.
The APC I mentioned has a 12V, 18Ah two battery pack. Alone this would double run time. Add the external battery as mentioned above and you could get much longer run times.
On the surface this doesn't seem like a deal. I agree with you there. The addition of another $40 battery doesn't add $470.
One could open up the Cyberpower and add a lead to connect to an external battery with no problem, thus extending run times. One could also purchase a Refurb APC unit for $240.

The issue is duty cycle. The APC was designed to run continuously, connect as many external batteries as you like, the Cyberpower was not designed this way. The idea is that the unit gets a chance to cool off after the battery is depleted or the power comes back on. Unit weight has some indication as to the build. The larger the transformer (used for both charging and inverting duty) the longer the run time before thermal shutdown. The Cyberpower is 16lbs. The APC is 60lbs!

Sure the Cyberpower would do fine, I mentioned what I mentioned because I always think long term. If the power is out for 20 minutes, I'm not too bothered. I design systems to handle several hours or days of outages. In southern Indiana I'm accustomed to 5 hour or longer outages, thanks to our fine Electric Cooperative.

Take Care,
Ken

 

[chken]

The Cyberpower unit has a single 12V, 9Ah battery. With the same load as stated in my post (250W) the run time would be 15-20 minutes.
The APC I mentioned has a 12V, 18Ah two battery pack. Alone this would double run time. Add the external battery as mentioned above and you could get much longer run times.
On the surface this doesn't seem like a deal. I agree with you there. The addition of another $40 battery doesn't add $470.
One could open up the Cyberpower and add a lead to connect to an external battery with no problem, thus extending run times. One could also purchase a Refurb APC unit for $240.

The issue is duty cycle. The APC was designed to run continuously, connect as many external batteries as you like, the Cyberpower was not designed this way. The idea is that the unit gets a chance to cool off after the battery is depleted or the power comes back on. Unit weight has some indication as to the build. The larger the transformer (used for both charging and inverting duty) the longer the run time before thermal shutdown. The Cyberpower is 16lbs. The APC is 60lbs!

Sure the Cyberpower would do fine, I mentioned what I mentioned because I always think long term. If the power is out for 20 minutes, I'm not too bothered. I design systems to handle several hours or days of outages. In southern Indiana I'm accustomed to 5 hour or longer outages, thanks to our fine Electric Cooperative.

Take Care,
Ken

Thanks for the explanation, I'm Ken too!

 

[Doug Doty]

I have a whole house LP gas standby setup with auto transfer and priority automatic power shedding. It is all a bunch of bologna... When the power goes off you need to > stay warm, > have some light in the dark and > most like to think the frig. and freezer will not thaw. Just put a high quality 2000 watt generator ( Honda or Yamaha ) in the garage and show the wife how easy they fire up and what to do with it and problem solved. Run a cord to a lamp, and another to the stove and start it back up. If the power is out more than 4 hours run a third cord to the Refrig/Freezer. I am a General Aviation pilot so AV gas is easy to get and it lasts forever sealed up and will never foul a carb. If you go to your local small airport most will sell you 5 gallons and it is the last bastion of good gasoline. I have the same 3 pieces of Stihl power equipment for 26 years now and no carb problems ever.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

I think we need to know more about what you want to power other than the stove, for how long, and just how involved in getting things going when the power is out your wife is willing to be. If just powering the stove to allow for shutdown, a relatively small UPS is fine. If just the stove continuing to run for a half day or longer, a small inverter generator (honda or Yamaha, for example) is great, but you need to safely get the electricity to the stove, with the generator outside. Other threads discuss that, but a transfer switch and approved inlet mounted outdoors is the right way to do it, and your wife must be comfortable hooking it up and starting it. If more than just the stove (frig, lights, etc,) then the same idea of a generator applies, but a larger one.

You mentioned batteries... Quadrafire does an excellent job of making some models that run for a day on a single deep cycle battery of about 100 AH (12v). However, you also note that you don't want a battery sitting in the living area (excellent idea to avoid that) and you have no basement. Thus, this sounds like a less than ideal situation u less your wife is willing to move the battery temporarily into place, hook it up, manually restart the stove, etc.

The bottom line is that you need to very clearly spell out what you need to power, and we need to know a bit more about your wife's willingness to hook things up, turn things on, manually start a gen, etc. I travel for up to 5 or so days at least a few times each year, and my wife and I both work from home with dedicated offices, multiple phone lines, four always-on computers, and a need to maintain internet connectivity. We also average at least one multi-day power outage each year (I chuckle at those who say outages last only a few hours). Because of that, we have both a large UPS that has a dedicated circuit coming out of it that can power our stoves, two fridges, and the central security and communications equipment for over 12 hours, and a backup gen with enough fuel for 4-5 days. But it has over $500 worth of batteries alone, and my wife knows how to do the switchovers required to move everything over to the generator (manual start, which is how we controlled the cost a bit in our system). We can power almost the whole house, but there's effort involved. Our neighbors have a 500 gallon propane tank and automatic generator, and everything comes on automaticaly - but at a $10K or so price tag for their top of the line system.

The bottom line is that short of an automatic generator that turns itself on and off, dealing with power outages requires a large amount of planning and tradeoffs. What tradeoffs are you and your wife willing to make, and how much are you willing to spend?

 

[millerized]

There are a few gravity fed, no electricity stoves out there. Shortly, there will be another manufacturer once I get my act together.

 

[Bioburner]

There are a few gravity fed, no electricity stoves out there. Shortly, there will be another manufacturer once I get my act together.

Have you checked out the Prairie Dog Stove system? It's on my summer need to get list.

 

[millerized]

Have you checked out the Prairie Dog Stove system? It's on my summer need to get list.

Interesting.....but it's indoor usability is severely limited Excellent idea, though. Probably a good use of all those 'flavored' pellets I saw yesterday...peach, hickory, apple...

 

[Bioburner]

You didn't check out the Ice shack heater?