Don't mean to get nothin' stirred up, BUT . . .

[scotsman]

. . . if stoves put a max of 700 to 800 degree heat levels up the stack and the SS flue pipe is cleaned every year, why would 2100 degree rated pipe or even 1700 degree rated pipe be required? Can stoves reach 1700 or 2100 degree temps?

Also, if it's double wall pipe, is the 2" gap better filled with insulation or left open so the heat can be carried away to the top of the chimney. It would seem each would have its advantages.

continuing to study . . . !

 

[mikeathens]

One word: chimneyfire

or,

Two words: chimney fire

 

[begreen]

What you are seeing here are for the most part normal temps being reported. If the fire gets out of control say due to leaving an ash pan door open and walking away from the stove, then temps can get higher. And in the event of a chimney fire, they can reach the upper limit. L

Are you asking about class A pipe in the attic? If yes, leave the 2" gap open, and add an attic insulation guard. You don't want insulation in there at all.

 

[Metal]

They are rated for 2100ºF intermittent and 1000ºF continuous (per UL103HT). There is usually a larger air gap in the air insulated so the overall pipe diameter is larger. Most if not all pipe that passes UL103HT has insulated walls.

 

[scotsman]

What you are seeing here are for the most part normal temps being reported. If the fire gets out of control say due to leaving an ash pan door open and walking away from the stove, then temps can get higher. And in the event of a chimney fire, they can reach the upper limit. L

Are you asking about class A pipe in the attic? If yes, leave the 2" gap open, and add an attic insulation guard. You don't want insulation in there at all.

I've been told that there are two kinds of double wall pipe made: one with open air between the inner SS piping and the outer wall and one with insulation packed between inner and outer wall. Both have been recommended, but I don't know enough to know which is best (or appropriate). Am I naive to assume that an annual cleaning can prevent a chimney fire? The wood I burn is extremely dry (over 60 years old). I assumed that an annual cleaning would remove the possibility of a chimney fire and create a big cushion between what a stove puts out and the degree rating of the pipe.

Don't know what Class A pipe is, sorry. My flue pipe is 8" inner SS with galvanized 11" outer pipe with airspace between and vent holes all around the bottom of the 11" pipe. It goes from ZC FP up into attic where it is exposed for the 8 feet between ceiling and roof rafters, and then on up through the roof into a false chimney of brick that sits on the roof. This is supported in the attic by several 2 X 6 studs from the framing to the roof joists. The chimney is capped and nicely finished out with a high quality cap and guard. I don't like this arrangement, but don't know what to do about it at this point. We bought the house four years after it was built.

 

[mikeathens]

What you are seeing here are for the most part normal temps being reported. If the fire gets out of control say due to leaving an ash pan door open and walking away from the stove, then temps can get higher. And in the event of a chimney fire, they can reach the upper limit. L

Are you asking about class A pipe in the attic? If yes, leave the 2" gap open, and add an attic insulation guard. You don't want insulation in there at all.

I've been told that there are two kinds of double wall pipe made: one with open air between the inner SS piping and the outer wall and one with insulation packed between inner and outer wall. Both have been recommended, but I don't know enough to know which is best (or appropriate). Am I naive to assume that an annual cleaning can prevent a chimney fire? The wood I burn is extremely dry (over 60 years old). I assumed that an annual cleaning would remove the possibility of a chimney fire and create a big cushion between what a stove puts out and the degree rating of the pipe.

Don't know what Class A pipe is, sorry. My flue pipe is 8" inner SS with galvanized 11" outer pipe with airspace between and vent holes all around the bottom of the 11" pipe. It goes from ZC FP up into attic where it is exposed for the 8 feet between ceiling and roof rafters, and then on up through the roof into a false chimney of brick that sits on the roof. This is supported in the attic by several 2 X 6 studs from the framing to the roof joists. The chimney is capped and nicely finished out with a high quality cap and guard. I don't like this arrangement, but don't know what to do about it at this point. We bought the house four years after it was built.

Uhhhhh...you need to do some research. The "open air" type is for your connector pipe between the stove and your prefab chimney. The "insulated" type has to be used after any wall/ceiling penetration. If you have galvanized, I'd be sure to make sure you don't have "B" vent rated for gas only. Galvanization can fume off if it gets too hot. Check out Selkirk's site for documentation on proper chimney construction...there's a diagram showing components and configurations for almost every situation.

Edit: or if you need "expert" advice, call a reputable stove dealer or chimney sweep to evaluate your setup.

 

[STOVEGUY11]

The big question I have. What are you trying to do with this fireplace? If you want a wood burning stove or insert, the chimney there is not rated for a wood burner as is.

 

[Valhalla]

Choose the best possible materials, primarily for you and your family's safety.

If you loose your largest asset, your home, and for just a few dollars... then all that attempted to gain is lost.

The product engineers that spec and design these materials for the necessary dimensional codes, know what they are doing.

Do not compromise for safety!

 

[pinewoodburner]

Choose the best possible materials, primarily for you and your family's safety.

If you loose your largest asset, your home, and for just a few dollars... then all that attempted to gain is lost.

The product engineers that spec and design these materials for the necessary dimensional codes, know what they are doing.

Do not compromise for safety!

This is one of the best statements I have read here. It is why I spent an extra $180 to insulate my liner in the existing interior chimney and the $60 for the permit and inspection. So I may have spent at the most an extra $300, but it was all done with the best possible methods and the insurance company can not say that it was not up to code.

 

[scotsman]

The big question I have. What are you trying to do with this fireplace? If you want a wood burning stove or insert, the chimney there is not rated for a wood burner as is.

I am wanting to install a stove in front of the existing ZC FP and connect it to the existing chimney. The dealer, who sold and installed the current equipment in the house when it was new (4 years ago), has told me that I can connect the woodstove to the existing 8" SS (inner) 11" (outer) double wall piping and "never have a problem". On the bid to install a DW Large Catalytic and eveything needed to start burning, he does not include anything above the 6" to 8" adapter connecting to the 8" SS inner pipe--and I'm concerned. What I'm saying in my posts are the things he's saying to me and apparently y'all don't agree. It's hard for me to believe that he would install something he knew would not be safe and I'm trying to make sense of it all. A week or so back, I mentioned that maybe an insulated 6" SS liner should be installed inside the 8" pipe and he said that I would not gain anything at all by doing that and that hooking the stove up with a 6" to 8" adapter to the existing piping would make it draw better anyway. This fellow is the only dealer in town.

SO, regardless of what he says, WILL a 6" liner inside the 8" flue pipe, which is inside the 11" pipe make this installation safe up to 2100 degrees? Should the 6" liner have insulation between it and the 8" pipe, as some have suggested? Will THAT bring the rating up to 2100 or is the dealer correct that I won't gain anything? I don't mind spending the money IF the goal is accomplished, but I don't like to spend money for no return. So, what/who is right? Is it even possible to meet the desired requirement with the existing arrangement? If it isn't possible, I'll scrap the whole darned project here and now.

 

[Metal]

What brand is the current ZC fireplace. I assume the pipe is manufactured by the fireplace manufacturer as it is uninsulated. Check the pipe to see if there is a label on it, if there is does it say "UL Listed to 103HT" or "UL Listed to 103" and who is the manufacturer?

 

[humpin iron]

You can not put that CDW on the hearth without major work

 

[scotsman]

What brand is the current ZC fireplace. I assume the pipe is manufactured by the fireplace manufacturer as it is uninsulated. Check the pipe to see if there is a label on it, if there is does it say "UL Listed to 103HT" or "UL Listed to 103" and who is the manufacturer?

Hey Lothar!
The ZC FP is a Majestic (Vermont Castings) SR36A with "SK8" pipe. What SK8 translates to in the UL world is not presently known, but it likely isn't good for what I want to do. I have made the trip across an inhospitable attic to try to find a label on the exposed pipe in the attic without results. I may try again tonight, hoping to get a definitive answer. I should have tapped on the pipe to determine if it is or is not insulated, but was so intent on finding a label that I forgot to do that. The 50+ feet across that attic is tough and I need to think through it before doing it again. Sounds strange, but at 240, I have to watch my step.

 

[scotsman]

You can not put that CDW on the hearth without major work

If you mean the Dutch West, it has been eliminated from consideration, because of advice received on this board. Please advise what is meant by "major work". It's looking more like "major" all the time.

UPDATE: After reaching a considerable frustration point yesterday afternoon, I decided to go to the dealer and find out just what the heck was going on and why and all that. The owner, the guy I had been dealing with, was out sick so I got the employees together and grilled them on what needed to be done to install the DW (that the owner had suggested), or any other airtight stove, and safely burn. Interestingly, they were all in agreement--a 6" SS liner should be installed inside the existing chimney. I asked if that would bring the arrangement up to an equivalent rating of 2100 degrees. They said they did not know, because there was no test data for that arrangement, BUT with two SS pipes and then an outer galvanized, there should be no hint of a problem with burning 24/7 if we wanted to.

SO, the FP shop employees and the brain trust of Hearth.com appear to be in agreement as to the liner install, which is a great relief. The question before the trust now is: Will the 6" SS liner install bring the capability up to a 2100 rating so we can burn, without fear of a mighty conflagration, or not.

 

[pyro68]

there are some inserts that are rated to be installed in a fireplace like that with a liner, a lot of disagreement exists about needing the insulation on the liner for an insert that is rated for a ZC fireplace. My understanding of the code is any freestanding woodstove connected to that type of chimney must be insulated. My opinion (for whatever that's worth) is when in doubt, you will never regret insulating the liner. Another option is to remove the inner pipe or the entire chimney, put a T in the fireplace and run a Class A packed pipe chimney (chimney typically used for woodstoves) through that space. There is "air-cooled" pipe with a 2100* rating, you will find many different opinions about which is better, packed or air-cooled; however most ZC fireplaces are not installed with a chimney rated to connect a freestanding woodstove to. A local hearth shop or chimney sweep may be able to assist you.

 

[humpin iron]

you must find the "K" factor needed for the stove you want to do and figger out if your present hearth can take the heat. Also your FP has framing around it, the FP is made to work this way, a stove in front of that will most likely be too much heat for the walls. This project is not as simple as putting a stove in front of the FP and hooking up a pipe.

 

[bokehman]

why would 2100 degree rated pipe or even 1700 degree rated pipe be required? Can stoves reach 1700 or 2100 degree temps?

Maybe not the stove, but the stove pipe can. The other day I started a kindling fire (one small plank of pallet wood and about ten 1" round sticks). I lit it and left the draught open. I stayed beside it watching a report on the news. After less than five minutes my wife pointed at the stove pipe and said "Look!". It was bright orange so I'm guessing that was quite a bit more than 2100F (maybe 2500?).

 

[scotsman]

you must find the "K" factor needed for the stove you want to do and figger out if your present hearth can take the heat. Also your FP has framing around it, the FP is made to work this way, a stove in front of that will most likely be too much heat for the walls. This project is not as simple as putting a stove in front of the FP and hooking up a pipe.

10-4 on this not being a simple project!! (So far, none of my projects have ever been simple!) The plan for the wall and floor is to construct two hearth pads, one for the floor and one for the wall of the FP, with a hole in it for the connection to the liner. I've studied all the posts and archives here and have come up with a plan for the pads that appear to be way overkill, but effective, according to those with whom I've discussed it. Fortunately, the FP sticks out into the room about two feet farther than the cabinets on the left and 4 feet from the nearest verticals on the right. There is no hearth in the traditional sense. The FP is faced with the same ceramic tile that's on the floor and it's a 90 degree angle between the face of the FP and the floor. The FP tile face is about 4.5' wide. Distance to combustibles is way good.

I have decided to call a couple of chimney sweeps to come evaluate the setup and give me a qualified opinion. That will give us some sort of track to run on, I hope.

As you say, the stove will dictate the "K" factor and much is waiting on the discovery of what brand and model the stove is.

 

[Metal]

Majestic builds their own vent, so you should call them and inquire as to what it has been tested for (usually it is only tested to their fireplaces as they don't sell to any other company so it probably does not carry the generic UL Listing). The new owner of Majestic is Monessen Hearth Systems out of Paris, Kentucky.

 

[mikeathens]

OK...I don't know what's going on here. This should be simple:

The DW catalytic uses an 8" flue collar, so why would you be considering a 6" liner? If you are talking NONcatalytic, then 6" is correct. But, I don't think I would even consider a noncat after the nightmare I (and others here) have gone through with that particular stove.

 

[begreen]

TB, summary:

* The ZC fireplace flue pipe is not rated for woodstove use.
* A liner "may" be an appropriate way to connect the woodstove, however:
* Very few stoves are approved and tested in this application. To my knowledge, Dutchwest stoves are not. I believe the Hearthstone Homestead is and we have had postings here that say that Jotul has approved this type of installation. Though to date, this is not documented in their manuals to my knowledge. If your inspector requires documentation of testing, you may be SOL.
* The liner must be sized correctly for the stove
* There is double-wall insulated "class A" pipe that is used as exterior flue pipe (this is the shiny stainless pipe you may see on the side of a house or coming up through the roof) and then there is double-wall connector pipe. Connector pipe is what connects the stove to the flue system (which could be class A pipe, or a masonry chimney).
* Be wary of any store that does not state this up front. They may be more interested in the sale than your safety.

Also, do read up on the stove ratings and postings here for Dutchwest stoves. The downdraft VC stoves do not have the best reliability track record and are very particular about the flue connection. And by all means download the manual for the stove and read it before deciding on the purchase. There are other requirements that we have not discussed, like hearth requirements. Sometimes these can get expensive if the hearth extension requires rebuilding to a high R value.

 

[scotsman]

OK...I don't know what's going on here. This should be simple:

The DW catalytic uses an 8" flue collar, so why would you be considering a 6" liner? If you are talking NONcatalytic, then 6" is correct. But, I don't think I would even consider a noncat after the nightmare I (and others here) have gone through with that particular stove.

As stated earlier, all DWs have been eliminated from consideration, based on information from this board. I was/am in the process of determining if an airtight installation is even doable before deciding on a stove (or not). I have an offer of an almost new stove (brand and model unknown at this point) for free (long story) and am waiting on the stove info before proceeding. All I know at this point is his statement that it is a very "nice" stove and it's not more than two or three years old and VERY lightly used, BUT he is not a stove person so I'm trying to get my ducks in a row while waiting.

 

[mikeathens]

OK...I don't know what's going on here. This should be simple:

The DW catalytic uses an 8" flue collar, so why would you be considering a 6" liner? If you are talking NONcatalytic, then 6" is correct. But, I don't think I would even consider a noncat after the nightmare I (and others here) have gone through with that particular stove.

As stated earlier, all DWs have been eliminated from consideration, based on information from this board. I was/am in the process of determining if an airtight installation is even doable before deciding on a stove (or not). I have an offer of an almost new stove (brand and model unknown at this point) for free (long story) and am waiting on the stove info before proceeding. All I know at this point is his statement that it is a very "nice" stove and it's not more than two or three years old and VERY lightly used, BUT he is not a stove person so I'm trying to get my ducks in a row while waiting.

I personally like the DW catalytic stoves.

If you are planning to heat your whole house, I'd be sure that you are getting it right the first time (trust me, I've been through four stoves in as many years, and finally got it right). Even though you might be getting "free" stove, it might be more hassle than it's worth if it's WAAAAAYYYY too small, or too big. On the other hand, if you just want a little ambiance, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Anyhow, just a little unrequested advice...

 

[scotsman]

TB, summary:

1 The ZC fireplace flue pipe is not rated for woodstove use.
2 A liner "may" be an appropriate way to connect the woodstove, however:
3 Very few stoves are approved and tested in this application. To my knowledge, Dutchwest stoves are not. I believe the Hearthstone Homestead is and we have had postings here that say that Jotul has approved this type of installation. Though to date, this is not documented in their manuals to my knowledge. If your inspector requires documentation of testing, you may be SOL.
4 The liner must be sized correctly for the stove
5 There is double-wall insulated "class A" pipe that is used as exterior flue pipe (this is the shiny stainless pipe you may see on the side of a house or coming up through the roof) and then there is double-wall connector pipe. Connector pipe is what connects the stove to the flue system (which could be class A pipe, or a masonry chimney).
6 Be wary of any store that does not state this up front. They may be more interested in the sale than your safety.

Also, do read up on the stove ratings and postings here for Dutchwest stoves. The downdraft VC stoves do not have the best reliability track record and are very particular about the flue connection. And by all means download the manual for the stove and read it before deciding on the purchase. There are other requirements that we have not discussed, like hearth requirements. Sometimes these can get expensive if the hearth extension requires rebuilding to a high R value.

1-understood
2-this is what I'm hoping
3-DW stoves have been eliminated and we are out in the county and no inspectors will come out--so I'm on my own.
4-understood: Since stove type is not known (cat or non-cat, model or brand) quite a lot depends on all that
5-this is where the confusion is for me. It isn't clear to me just what is required where for an airtight installation. Planning to call a couple of chimney sweeps and another installer for opinions. Can one have the current pipe pulled out and the correct pipe installed--without completely disassembling my home?
6-This is the crux of the matter. Comparing what the dealer told me versus what I've learned here is why I'm slogging through all this. Burning the house down is not part of the plan here. We plan to die in this house, but from old age not fire!

Can't tell y'all how important your input is. Had it not been for that, I would have let the dealer install a stove on this chimney and probably barbequed my house. Really appreciate your input. Y'all very well may have saved our bacon, as it were! With all your help, I will get to the bottom of all this and will do what it takes to do the install without compromising safety, ASSUMING it's doable at all. And so, we press on! Thanks to everyone!