Econoburn EBW 200 Install

[Boardroom]

Good evening all.
Newbie here. I purchased my boiler in May of 2013 thinking it would be no problem getting things going for last winter. Well here I am with my install still not finished. I am near Ottawa, Canada and figured there would be plenty of knowledgeable wood boiler fellows that I could hire to help me out but that dream ended as quickly as it came.
I discovered this site about a year ago and boy have I learned from you guys. The problem is that every time I think I have things covered, you throw something new at me. Lots of fun though. I especially like it when someone works through their entire install and posts it like Carprofessor has been doing recently. I see he even lives in my area.
I have to get this thing up and running for this winter or my 4 daughters and my wife are going to toss me out as a lost cause. I am hoping someone here is willing to help me out.
I grew up on the farm and have been using wood stoves all my life and this is the logical next step.
I live in an old farmhouse with about 1700 square feet to heat. I will be using some old cast iron rads that we have refurbished along with a small section of radiant floor in the basement of a small addition.
My boiler is in my detached garage. The garage has a finished loft above it which I also plan on heating with the boiler.
I have my Logstor 1" underground line already in and my storage tanks installed and plumbed. 1 1/4" copper from the boiler to the tanks then 1" to the house. Here is a picture of how they are set up. Ted Kestor, the same fellow that Carprofessor got his tanks from, also built mine. No I didn't have them painted the same color on purpose.


There will be air vents on the top of each tank.
I have a lot of questions but the part I need to finish first is the connection of the boiler to the tanks. The return line with the 15-58 pump that you can see is just dry fitted. I am using a Caleffi 280 series boiler protection valve which will be installed at the bottom of the bypass loop with the pump between it and the boiler.
The top supply line will have an air separator and a low water cut off. I will put a check valve on the supply line just before it reaches the tanks to prevent the tanks from thermosiphoning back.
The part I am stuck on is how to handle the "power off" situation and the overheat during a regular burn with power on. I would like to avoid having a gravity dump as it seems fruitless when I can just have a battery backup that will let my burn finish as usual. That will handle the power off situation but what about the overheat with power on? Should I be having a pump hooked up to my overtemp circuit on the boiler that pumps to some emitters in the finished room on the floor above? For normal usage I was hoping I could just cut a hole in the ceiling above the boiler and let the heat from the boiler room rise up.( I will eventually be continuing the wall on the front of the tanks across in front of the boiler to the far wall). This would save me the cost of the emitters for a room that is hardly ever used and has electric baseboards when more heat is needed. Why can't I just use my tanks to absorb an overheat? Is it possible to put tees on each side of my pump and build a bypass with another 15-58 pump in parallel that is set on high. It would be wired to the overtemp circuit so that it would come on in addition to the regular pump, hoping that this would move more water and take care of the situation? Feasible?
Sorry for being long winded but I wanted to give as much info as possible. I hope the picture worked.
Thanks a bunch.
Boardroom.

 

[Bob Rohr]

Good evening all.
Newbie here. I purchased my boiler in May of 2013 thinking it would be no problem getting things going for last winter. Well here I am with my install still not finished. I am near Ottawa, Canada and figured there would be plenty of knowledgeable wood boiler fellows that I could hire to help me out but that dream ended as quickly as it came.
I discovered this site about a year ago and boy have I learned from you guys. The problem is that every time I think I have things covered, you throw something new at me. Lots of fun though. I especially like it when someone works through their entire install and posts it like Carprofessor has been doing recently. I see he even lives in my area.
I have to get this thing up and running for this winter or my 4 daughters and my wife are going to toss me out as a lost cause. I am hoping someone here is willing to help me out.
I grew up on the farm and have been using wood stoves all my life and this is the logical next step.
I live in an old farmhouse with about 1700 square feet to heat. I will be using some old cast iron rads that we have refurbished along with a small section of radiant floor in the basement of a small addition.
My boiler is in my detached garage. The garage has a finished loft above it which I also plan on heating with the boiler.
I have my Logstor 1" underground line already in and my storage tanks installed and plumbed. 1 1/4" copper from the boiler to the tanks then 1" to the house. Here is a picture of how they are set up. Ted Kestor, the same fellow that Carprofessor got his tanks from, also built mine. No I didn't have them painted the same color on purpose.
View attachment 138528

There will be air vents on the top of each tank.
I have a lot of questions but the part I need to finish first is the connection of the boiler to the tanks. The return line with the 15-58 pump that you can see is just dry fitted. I am using a Caleffi 280 series boiler protection valve which will be installed at the bottom of the bypass loop with the pump between it and the boiler.
The top supply line will have an air separator and a low water cut off. I will put a check valve on the supply line just before it reaches the tanks to prevent the tanks from thermosiphoning back.
The part I am stuck on is how to handle the "power off" situation and the overheat during a regular burn with power on. I would like to avoid having a gravity dump as it seems fruitless when I can just have a battery backup that will let my burn finish as usual. That will handle the power off situation but what about the overheat with power on? Should I be having a pump hooked up to my overtemp circuit on the boiler that pumps to some emitters in the finished room on the floor above? For normal usage I was hoping I could just cut a hole in the ceiling above the boiler and let the heat from the boiler room rise up.( I will eventually be continuing the wall on the front of the tanks across in front of the boiler to the far wall). This would save me the cost of the emitters for a room that is hardly ever used and has electric baseboards when more heat is needed. Why can't I just use my tanks to absorb an overheat? Is it possible to put tees on each side of my pump and build a bypass with another 15-58 pump in parallel that is set on high. It would be wired to the overtemp circuit so that it would come on in addition to the regular pump, hoping that this would move more water and take care of the situation? Feasible?
Sorry for being long winded but I wanted to give as much info as possible. I hope the picture worked.
Thanks a bunch.
Boardroom.

Really the only time you could have an over-temp condition is during a power outage, or the tanks are up to temperature, no load condition and full firebox.

Once you get use to building a fire to the weather and load conditions over-heating will not be a huge concern.

The 281 group from Caleffi has a "gravity gate" to prevent over-heating in loss of power conditions, that is all they use in thousands of installations in Europe.

With your tanks piped and mounted that way, no check valve in the piping, I'll bet they will thermo-siphon under no power conditions.

If over-heat with power on is a concern, wire a high temperature stat to call on a zone of heat to dump any excess until the fire slows down.

I have been running my EKO 40 for 7 years now, never an over-heat condition. I didn't even use my 500 gallon buffer last year, just an 80 gallon buffer and some careful fire tending. During power outages, the EKO shuts down fairly well, I'll bet yours will also.

 

[Boardroom]

Thanks Bob. I must admit that I have been guilty when it comes to overthinking things regarding the overtemp.
I originally looked at the 281 but was nervous about whether I had enough rise, and large enough pipes to make it work. My supply pipe turns horizontal towards the tanks only 6 inches above the height of my boiler. My boiler is 64"high with my return pipe coming in about 8 inches from the bottom.

 

[maple1]

Similar to Bob, I would think that the boiler controls themselves should handle or prevent a power-on overheat.

If you were thinking about cutting a hole in the floor above the boiler, I would instead think about drilling a hole instead, and running a pipe up there connected to one of your cast iron rads. That rad could serve as an overheat dump, and also heat the space up there.

Also don't think you need a check valve in the boiler supply line. I would keep possible restrictions in that line to a minimum. How are your loads pumped? Using a pump like an Alpha will also reduce chances of unwanted flow through the boiler when the fire is out - a non-variable speed pump will try to pump the same flow when there is only one zone open, which might pull flow through the boiler when you don't want it.

EDIT : Typed too slow again.

With the small vertical speration between boiler out & storage in, I think I would do the overheat dump mentioned. I've got more rise than that, although not a lot more, and I don't think mine would flow quite enough through storage with the power out to avoid an overheat. Although I don't have a Caleffi.

Also seems a bit of a shame that the upper tank fittings aren't closer to the top of the tanks - seems like quite a bit of underutilized tank space above them, from the pic.

 

[Boardroom]

Similar to Bob, I would think that the boiler controls themselves should handle or prevent a power-on overheat.

If you were thinking about cutting a hole in the floor above the boiler, I would instead think about drilling a hole instead, and running a pipe up there connected to one of your cast iron rads. That rad could serve as an overheat dump, and also heat the space up there.

Also don't think you need a check valve in the boiler supply line. I would keep possible restrictions in that line to a minimum. How are your loads pumped? Using a pump like an Alpha will also reduce chances of unwanted flow through the boiler when the fire is out - a non-variable speed pump will try to pump the same flow when there is only one zone open, which might pull flow through the boiler when you don't want it.

EDIT : Typed too slow again.

With the small vertical speration between boiler out & storage in, I think I would do the overheat dump mentioned. I've got more rise than that, although not a lot more, and I don't think mine would flow quite enough through storage with the power out to avoid an overheat. Although I don't have a Caleffi.

Also seems a bit of a shame that the upper tank fittings aren't closer to the top of the tanks - seems like quite a bit of underutilized tank space above them, from the pic.

 

[Boardroom]

Oops. Clicked something wrong there and sent a blank message. Sorry.

OK. Sounds like I will ditch the check valve in the supply line.

There will be an aquastat mounted on the top of the boiler. My understanding of the boiler controls is that when an overtemp occurs this aquastat energizes the overtemp circuit which turns off the fan but keeps the circulators running. The manual actually reads like this though:
"When the boiler reaches 220 degrees the overtemp relay will energize and an audible alarm will sound. This overtemp relay also energizes the 120 volt leads for a field installed overtemp control which will be piped into the system to consume excess BTU's".
If the fan is off and the circulator is running, why do I need anything else. Won't the fire just burn down?

Yes. I will be using an Alpha pump for my load pump which should just pull from and return to the tanks. Do you see it circulating through the boiler?

I wondered about the same thing regarding the level of my supply fittings on the tanks. It would be nice if they were higher. I wonder if I should change them. My brother has some welders working for him that I suppose could easily cut new holes and seal the old ones. Would it be worth the trouble?

 

[maple1]

What's up there now for fittings where you plan to put the vents?

If those aren't sufficient, I think I would get the welders in if they're close, and comfortable with doing it. This would be the time to do it, and I think would improve things a lot. Try to pressure test any new welds before the welders leave.

On the overheat, as long as your storage isn't fully up to temp when it occurs, yes the pumps running by themselves should handle it. But when it comes to overheat, there is nothing like redundancy. You could always utilize those 120v leads later, that in an overheat situation would activate a heating zone above the boiler when you do get a heating zone installed up there. Ideally that would incorporate a normally open zone valve to cover a power outage situation too (especially since in a power outage situation your pumps won't be running).

For overheat on mine, I've got a NO zone valve on the top of the boiler that opens to my upstairs zones, plus the natural convection to storage, plus I also added a used UPS to my loading pump that I plug into when the weather is threatening a power outage or I have to leave when I have a fire burning.

 

[Boardroom]

There are just small threaded holes in the tops of the tanks now to house the air vents. Are you thinking to move the supply lines to the very top? I thought you just meant up where the temperature gauge is now. I suppose I could leave the supply lines from the boiler where they are and just add 1 1/4' fittings to the top to draw to the load. I just looked back at Carprofessor's pictures and his supply line to the load is much higher than mine.
The idea with the plumbing on my tanks though is to have the supply from boiler and supply to load as the same pipe. That way when the tanks are cooler and the house needs heat, like when you have been away, the load will call for heat and draw directly from the boiler. I won't have to wait for the tanks to heat up. Does this make sense? If I wanted to keep that, I would need to just move the whole supply line up and then plug the old holes. Hmm, that would give me a lot more elevation if I chose to go the thermosiphon route for my power out scenario also .

 

[woodsmaster]

I would put the fittings in the very top of the tanks. All the storage above your current fittings is wasted space for the most part.

 

[woodsmaster]

the temp gauge wont do a lot of good being above the inlets either.

 

[Boardroom]

Never thought of that. So what if I moved the whole supply line to the top and left the temperature gauge where it is?

 

[maple1]

I would put the fittings in the very top of the tanks. All the storage above your current fittings is wasted space for the most part.

Me too.

The hottest water will be at the tops of the tanks, and with the loads drawing from where they are now they won't get the hottest water.

I think I would get them high as possible & plug the existing ones.

On circulating through the boiler when drawing from storage, I had that problem before I swapped out my 15-58 3 speed load pump for an Alpha. With the Alpha, you can reduce flow through your zones very easily. It might also be a good idea to put a couple of extra bends in the boiler supply pipe, between the tanks & the top of boiler, to increase the head on that part of the circuit just a bit & encourage more flow between the loads & tanks - while keeping the piping between the tanks & loads as straight & direct as possible. That might happen if you re-plumb to the top anyway. Although you don't want to introduce too much head to keep gravity flow in the picture. Also the way you have the bottoms of the tanks plumbed going each way might accomplish that already.

 

[Boardroom]

OK. Now that we are talking about replumbing, can we rethink the flow in the tanks for a minute please? I just want to make sure I don't miss anything again. Maple1, you are concerned that the load pump will pull from the boiler. I know this will happen when the boiler is running but when it is cold won't the load pump just be circulating through the tanks? It is returning water to the bottom of the tanks in that middle pipe so I would think the easiest path the water can take is to go back out the top because the boiler pump will not be pulling. Does this make sense? Is this what you were referring to in your last sentence?

 

[Paso]

Welcome Boardroom nice set up, I would also like to comment on the need for a " power outage " plan.
All of the problems I have incurred over the years, was when the hydro went down.
Yes at the worst possible time the power went out and I had to deal with a overheated boiler.
It is taken for granted these days that the electrical power very seldom goes down.

 

[maple1]

OK. Now that we are talking about replumbing, can we rethink the flow in the tanks for a minute please? I just want to make sure I don't miss anything again. Maple1, you are concerned that the load pump will pull from the boiler. I know this will happen when the boiler is running but when it is cold won't the load pump just be circulating through the tanks? It is returning water to the bottom of the tanks in that middle pipe so I would think the easiest path the water can take is to go back out the top because the boiler pump will not be pulling. Does this make sense? Is this what you were referring to in your last sentence?

Yes.

As always, wouldn't mind seeing more input from others though - but I think your bottom pipe arrangement is good.

 

[Boardroom]

I am going to move the supply to the top of the tanks. I think the welder is coming on Friday.
Is there any benefit to leaving the supply from the boiler where it is and just put supply to the load on the top? Or should I just move it all up and plug the current holes?

 

[goosegunner]

I am going to move the supply to the top of the tanks. I think the welder is coming on Friday.
Is there any benefit to leaving the supply from the boiler where it is and just put supply to the load on the top? Or should I just move it all up and plug the current holes?

I doubt there would be a benefit leaving it. Looking over your picture and also owning the same boiler myself, be aware of your piping layout obstructions for cleaning of the boiler. If you go to the top of the tanks it will give you the opportunity to go vertical more with the supply on top of the boiler. If not you might want to consider offsetting to one side of the boiler to allow removal of the top back panel and brushing of the tubes.

Cleaning was a chore at one point but I have simplified mine with a few modifications. Your storage will make cleaning easier but really should be brushed at a minimum once a month. I monitor internal flue temps with a probe and digital display. It is noticeable when clean and not so clean. If it was easier to clean I would do it every 2 weeks or less.

gg

 

[goosegunner]

With storage I would not be too concerned about a overheat when burning other than a pump failure. The controller drops to low fan at 5 degrees below set point and off at setpoint. Set up a secondary pump that could also be used if the first one gives you trouble, redundancy is usually nice. Mine are in parallel so it is just a matter of switching the power source. You could set it up with battery backup and it would also cover your no power dump zone.

gg

 

[Boardroom]

Thanks gg. I saw your setup and thought about doing the same parallel pump on mine, on the return side. If you look at my picture closely you can see the tees coming off each side of my pump to accommodate this. I don't have a lot of room though and wondered if the tees were too close to my main pump. Do you have to switch your power source to the other pump manually? Would it be possible to wire the extra parallel pump to the overtemp circuit so that it automatically comes on should the main pump fail or the power go out and temps go up?

 

[Boardroom]

Wait a minute. Should have thought about that one a little more. If the power goes out I have no power and the pump won't run. I guess I will have to have the battery backup also.

 

[maple1]

Wait a minute. Should have thought about that one a little more. If the power goes out I have no power and the pump won't run. I guess I will have to have the battery backup also.

That's where the higher tank entry point will help - promoting convection flow to your storage.

Although I still added a UPS a year later. I'm keen on reduncancy.

Kind of nitpicking, but it would help that flow even more if rather than right on top of the tank (and pointing up), the new entry point was down on the side just a bit, pointing horizontal. If I said that one right. Would make the welding & hole cutting a bit more difficult maybe, but then the pipe going up from the boiler to the tank would be going up all the way, then just a bit horizontal, rather than up over then down into the tank. That little down part would have potential for a bit of a heat trap, in convective flow. Not sure it would be significant though?

 

[Boardroom]

I think I will run the supply pipe past the new outlets on the top of the tanks and then run a horizontal piece over to each outlet that tees down into the tank. I will put the vents on the top of those tees. Maple's suggestion would be better but I agree that it may be difficult for them to cut that hole. I will ask the welder when he gets here.

 

[woodsmaster]

Probably better to just move the lines to the top, but had a thought. You could possibly put in a riser tube or diffuser to direct the water towards the top of the tanks if you didn't want to make new holes.

 

[Boardroom]

I am thinking of taking Goosegunner's suggestion about the two pumps in parallel. Is it a problem having the bypass loop tees this close to the main pump?
I really don't have a lot of room unless I move my boiler farther to the right, away from the storage tanks.

 

[Boardroom]

Good morning.
My welder cannot come to change my tank fittings until later next week.

There was frost here on Thursday night so I have to keep moving forward on the rest of the project while I wait for him.
I have attached a pdf of what I am proposing for my in-house schematic. I was hoping someone could have a look at it and comment on any issues or things I have overlooked.
If you are not familiar with the combomax electric boiler, it works the opposite of an indirect tank. The domestic water passes through the coil which is surrounded by boiler water.
The pump above the combomax is controlled by an aquastat in the combomax.
The temperature sensors on the diverter valve will control the flow to and from the system. If the incoming wood boiler water in the top line is hotter than the water being returned from the system, the diverter will direct the return water back to the wood boiler. If the water coming from the wood boiler is cooler, the diverter will recycle the water coming back from the system and the electric boiler will be doing the work.
I added the strainer because I am using refurbished cast iron radiators which may still have some junk left in the bottom of them.
I just had another thought. The temperature sensor on the top line should probably be out in my garage measuring the water temp in the top of my tanks. If I leave it where it is it will pick up the temp of the underground line, which may have sat for a while.