Economics

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,445
Michigan
Mod note: Thread moved, separate topic. Keep this neutral and respectful or it will be canned.

I think adding politics into the equation is pointless at this juncture. Neither Democrats or Republicans wanted to infect the nation. Information is changing daily, sometimes hourly, and gov't is not known for it's nimbleness.
 
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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
15,727
Philadelphia
I'm pretty sure we will be some form of socialist after this shakes out. My brother in law is essentially paying his employees to stay home while he continues working. I think eventually all non essential personnel will be paid to stay home until this passes or folks get tired of staying home.
We are more socialist every year, it’s the almost-natural progression of any society experiencing general stability and good times on a decades-long time scale. If you need any proof of this trend, just go back to your parents’ time and listen to the great Dem JFK, he sounds like today’s Republicans. But yes, I do anticipate events like this can accelerate this unfortunate direction.

Do note, despite anyone’s party predisposition, that there has never been a successful and sustainable socialist society, the financial collapse of the massive USSR in 1988 is our most recent and dramatic example of failure on a scale comparable to our own.
I think adding politics into the equation is pointless at this juncture. Neither Democrats or Republicans wanted to infect the nation. Information is changing daily, sometimes hourly, and gov't is not known for it's nimbleness.
So true! But it’s always encouraging to see the two parties can work together after a crisis, such as this or 9-11-2001. It’s a shame it never lasts long.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
We are more socialist every year, it’s the almost-natural progression of any society experiencing general stability and good times on a decades-long time scale. If you need any proof of this trend, just go back to your parents’ time and listen to the great Dem JFK, he sounds like today’s Republicans. But yes, I do anticipate events like this can accelerate this unfortunate direction.

Do note, despite anyone’s party predisposition, that there has never been a successful and sustainable socialist society, the financial collapse of the massive USSR in 1988 is our most recent and dramatic example of failure on a scale comparable to our own.

So true! But it’s always encouraging to see the two parties can work together after a crisis, such as this or 9-11-2001. It’s a shame it never lasts long.
I wouldn't call Stalin or Lennin socialists! Don't point to Venezuela either. You have cherry picked the worst examples while ignoring all the success. Look at the Scandanavian nations, they have the happiest people and high taxes. Obviously this is the best example. You can't exactly say all socialism is bad because totalitarian dictators couldn't make it work.
 
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Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,445
Michigan
I wouldn't call Stalin or Lennin socialists! Don't point to Venezuela either. You have cherry picked the worst examples while ignoring all the success. Look at the Scandanavian nations, they have the happiest people and high taxes. Obviously this is the best example. You can't exactly say all socialism is bad because totalitarian dictators couldn't make it work.
Good read if you are interested, Nordic socialism is different than the type that has failed around the world.

To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs.

 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
Good read if you are interested, Nordic socialism is different than the type that has failed around the world.

To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs.

OK folks, this topic could become the third rail. I am going to move it to a new thread. This thread should remain focused on Covid-19.
 
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Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,048
Eastern Central PA
. Look at the Scandanavian nations, they have the happiest people and high taxes.
And that model does not necessarily work for a country many times larger. With people who already feel taxed to death. Those who long for the Scandinavian life should relocate and try it,many thousands of muslims recently made that trip.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
And that model does not necessarily work for a country many times larger. With people who already feel taxed to death. Those who long for the Scandinavian life should relocate and try it,many thousands of muslims recently made that trip.
I'm not saying that's what we should do, simply saying that socialism isn't evil because it didn't work for the former Russian empire.
 

ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
There's a big difference between socialism and social programs such as healthcare, education, unemployment insurance, old age security etc. I'm not a believer in "each according to their ability, each according to their needs". I work a difficult stressful job and have incentive to work harder because I get compensated more for it. If we were all treated the same I might as well go flip burgers or something. But with the sliding scale tax system we have here I'm beginning to wonder if working twice as hard for 50% more is worth it.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
In reality the majority of folks everywhere are under paid. Oil field workers, teachers, mechanics, welders, clerks, and most other folks just aren't paid what they are worth and robots are coming for a lot of our jobs. Goods will only skyrocket once the third world workers who build our stuff are paid appropriately. This whole system is built on exploiting those at the bottom, you and I included. That's going to have to change once this is over.
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,048
Eastern Central PA
. I'm not a believer in "each according to their ability, each according to their needs". I work a difficult stressful job and have incentive to work harder because I get compensated more for it.
Exactly. Also one of the (huge)problems with all these givaways is the hardworking people see this and think ,hey why should i kill myself working and trying to get ahead and im living no better than those doing nothing . To some extent we are already doing that,taxing hard work and effort and rewarding those who do less or nothing and are perfectly capable of supporting themselves but for all the freebies. I see it everyday. Overtime should be completely TAX free. Any person working more than 40 hrs a week should pay ZERO extra taxes .
 
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Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,445
Michigan
Begreen, you seem like a reasonable person, but the only time someone touches the third rail is when they have a point against Socialism. Capitalism can be trashed without any recourse. Socialism, when boiled down to it's most basic core is when the government believes it knows how to spend peoples resources better than the people who earn the money.
 
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Sawset

Minister of Fire
Feb 14, 2015
887
Palmyra, WI
In 1900 Norwegians spent 50% of their income on food, and most of the rest on crowded housing. They didn't always have the appearance of affluence and high number of social programs.
 

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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
In 1900 Norwegians spent 50% of their income on food, and most of the rest on crowded housing. They didn't always have the appearance of affluence and high number of social programs.
In 1900 it was pretty similar here as well. Food is only cheap because uncle Sam subsidized it.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
Begreen, you seem like a reasonable person, but the only time someone touches the third rail is when they have a point against Socialism. Capitalism can be trashed without any recourse. Socialism, when boiled down to it's most basic core is when the government believes it knows how to spend peoples resources better than the people who earn the money.
No, sorry for the misunderstanding. It is the politics that starts turning it into the third rail. Mostly I have been trying to keep the thread on the important health topic of Covid-19. Unfortunately, there are and will be so many downstream effects of the pandemic that the conversation wanders, sometimes into the weeds. See below, it's easy to rename the thread title. I just ran with where the tangent was wandering.
 
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vinny11950

Minister of Fire
May 17, 2010
1,655
Eastern Long Island, NY
Capitalism has become
Begreen, you seem like a reasonable person, but the only time someone touches the third rail is when they have a point against Socialism. Capitalism can be trashed without any recourse. Socialism, when boiled down to it's most basic core is when the government believes it knows how to spend peoples resources better than the people who earn the money.
Really? Because I see it the other way. People trash socialism here all the time. They trash taxes, regulations, any sort of government intervention to help people generally is seen as negative. I think Begreen is trying to be fair, and you are trying to work the ref.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
Folks, I have a life and don't hang out here all day. Right now I am outdoors during the daytime starting garden work. By the time I get inside my hands don't work too well for typing, so mostly now I am just here in the morning. People need to self-regulate. That said, how about I change the title to Economics? House rules still apply
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,048
Eastern Central PA
In reality the majority of folks everywhere are under paid.
Unless you are producing less than you are being paid ,then you are over paid. Your unlikely to see this unless you run a business. I laugh when i hear the statement ,"how am i supposed to support a whole family on minimum wage". As if your wage is determined by the amount of bills you have managed to run up.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,477
South Puget Sound, WA
As if your wage is determined by the amount of bills you have managed to run up.
People need shelter, clothing, food and usually transportation for a job. Currently the sum cost of those essentials often are not met by the minimum wage in many areas. This is particularly true in areas of economic wealth. High tech workers have driven housing prices up like crazy here. That's great for them, but not for the people that feed and clean up after them.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
Unless you are producing less than you are being paid ,then you are over paid. Your unlikely to see this unless you run a business. I laugh when i hear the statement ,"how am i supposed to support a whole family on minimum wage". As if your wage is determined by the amount of bills you have managed to run up.
I'm saying this because prices have gone up but wages have not. You are not the norm as an employer. My wife's agency didn't offer her a damn thing after they told her to stay home (her client's mother traveled to FL so the agency is keeping my wife home). Taking care of the people that live on this planet together should not be a political statement.
 
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Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,048
Eastern Central PA
Perhaps flooding the country with millions of low wage workers has something to do with low wages. Not political, just a fact.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,109
Downeast Maine
Perhaps flooding the country with millions of low wage workers has something to do with low wages. Not political, just a fact.
Those jobs have to be done. Would you tell one of your children that they must work for 40 hours every week and still barely cling on just because folks want drive throughs (which are proving to be a great idea now!)?
 

ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
Exactly. Also one of the (huge)problems with all these givaways is the hardworking people see this and think ,hey why should i kill myself working and trying to get ahead and im living no better than those doing nothing . To some extent we are already doing that,taxing hard work and effort and rewarding those who do less or nothing and are perfectly capable of supporting themselves but for all the freebies. I see it everyday. Overtime should be completely TAX free. Any person working more than 40 hrs a week should pay ZERO extra taxes .
I agree with this. Problem is the government have budgeted that a portion of us want to make more money and will put in the hours to do it, we'd run even bigger deficits if OT was tax free.

Those jobs have to be done. Would you tell one of your children that they must work for 40 hours every week and still barely cling on just because folks want drive throughs (which are proving to be a great idea now!)?
If that's all they want to do is stand at a drive through and take orders then they deserve to be paid at the value of the service they provide. Who would become a teacher, doctor, lawyer, engineer, or any other profession or skilled trade if the people completing menial jobs got paid the same, or anywhere close to the same? Hard work is rewarded with money, that is the basis of employment and fair compensation for it.
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,048
Eastern Central PA
Would you tell one of your children that they must work for 40 hours every week and still barely cling on just because folks want drive throughs ?
I tell my kids if they want more than minimum wage they have to acquire more than minimum skills with minimum effort. Its the individuals job to do that ,and not their employers or society's fault if they dont.
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,445
Michigan
Working at a drive through is a high school job, meant to earn enough to buy a crappy car, and have gas money, not support a family. If you want nice things in life you have to work for it, it's not given away.