EKO-60 First Fire. Pics and Questions

[strmh]

Had my first real fire today to see if I'm on track to stay warm this winter. I think it'll take me a little time to learn to burn.....lots of trips to the shop to check the fire.

Looking for a little advice on a few things:

My current setup is very simple: EKO is in new shop with a 210' run of 1-1/4 pex; EKO connected in-series with oil boiler; no electrical conduit run from house to boiler; storage is planned in shop, but still I'm still looking for two LP tanks; stub-ups are there for overheat zone, but not installed; three radiant zones planned in shop, but not plumbed yet.

Questions:

-Right now, I'm using a Taco 010 at the boiler for my main circulator to feed the zone manifold in the house. The 4 house zones are fed with Taco 007's. Without wires run from shop to house, will it be possible to divert to storage (located in shop) when the house is not calling for heat?

-I used some translucent pex when connecting to my oil boiler.........I can see that there's plenty of air in the lines. Water is circulating, but the air is obvious. I included some purge valves near the oil boiler, but the air level doesn't seem to change. Suggestions?

-Finally, lots of smoke when opening the top door on the EKO. (Fans off, bottom door closed, damper open) What's the general consenus, install a hood with exhaust fan, or will I get less smoke as I gain experience burning?

Pics are attached for comments or suggestions. (Plenty of smoke out the chimney too, but I blame that on being a newbie)

Thanks,

TH

 

[pybyr]

Nice looking shop- and installation!

As to controlling whether water is sent to house or to storage in the shop, here are some quick thoughts, for what they're worth, in the absence of conduit:

(1) do a direct-bury, relatively shallow, of some 14-2 UF cable (intended for direct burial) and then, to be extra safe, only use it for a low voltage control (24 volt) that sends a signal to the shop when there's a call for heat at the house.

(2) some kind of wireless signalling, if the distance is short enough and there aren't obstructions between house and shop- probably RF-based (look at items from Ramsey Electronics and Velleman USA for possibilities)

-- whatever approach you use, you'll probably want to consider some sort of arrangement where a signal from the house turns on the circulator in the shop, but the circulators in the house do not then activate until heat has been confirmed to be arriving through the pipes at the house end- otherwise, you'll be circulating cold water at the beginning of a call for heat.

PS, on the smoke coming out the loading door, apparently EKO now has an accessory draft-boost blower to go between boiler and chimney, and that can be turned on selectively to keep smoke from spilling out of the door when loading. Unfortunately, judging by your photos, you may need to move your unit further from the wall to make room for that.

 

[strmh]

Thanks pybyr,

Either suggestion for storage control are worth pursuing.....regarding the 14/2....can that carry a 24v signal the 210' from house to shop?

I appreciate the input.

TH

 

[pybyr]

Thanks pybyr,

Either suggestion for storage control are worth pursuing.....regarding the 14/2....can that carry a 24v signal the 210' from house to shop?

I appreciate the input.

TH

The 14/2 UF is actually made for standard 120 volt wiring; the distance raises the issue only of resistance in the wire, over that distance (total wire run of 210 x 2 = 420 Ft round trip) the resistance will cause some voltage drop, and that voltage frop will increase in proportion to the current of whatever load you're running.

14 gauge is far larger than you'd normally run for signal/ control wiring, but it is the smallest UF (buriable) rated cable that I think is commonly found, and the extra gauge is a good idea to minimize loss along such a long run. DO make sure to get UF, not regular 14/2 "romex" which is not meant for, or likely to hold up to, direct bury. Also, steer clear of direct bury if you have a lot of sharp-edged stones in your soil- they make remarkable slicing devices over time with frost movement. Some people use black poly pipe as low cost unofficial conduit, which'd protect the wire (you should still use the UF, as moisture is likely to get in the pipe, and I'm not sure regular romex or other ordinary vinyl wire will do well with constant moisture).

I pulled up a resistance of 0.00297 ohms per foot for 14 gauge wire, yielding a total resistance of about 1.25 ohms for 420 ft. This cross-checks to be in the right ball-park when the figures are put in here, also:

http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

Then plugging those figures into Ohm's law, if you were running 1 ampere for the control function, then at 1.25 ohms of resistance, you'd get a voltage drop of 1.25 along the route. A 24 volt relay should draw far less than 1 amp. A solid-state relay should draw far less than even a normal electromechanical relay-- and if I'm reading the specs right, this one should be controllable with 24vac but be capable of switching a modest-sized circulator--
http://www.newark.com/carlo-gavazzi/rm1a23a25/solid-state-panel-mount-relay/dp/05M4302?Ntt=RM1A23A25
someone should double-check my reading of the specs, though, to be sure. I am not an engineer, but I have fun trying...

 

[solo40]

Seems like you could use the temp of the return water from the house to tell if
you should charge your storage. If the house is calling for heat the return
to the 60 should be low do not charge. If the house is not calling for heat the
return to the 60 should be high charge your storage. No wires to the house needed.

Ethan

 

[chuck172]

Is that a gate valve above the three way thermastatic valve? It should be a globe or ball valve.
Is that expansion tank big enough to handle your system with 1000 gallons pressurized storage?

 

[strmh]

Thanks to all for the replies.

pybyr, good link for the relay. I think this is the way I should go.

solo40, I considered that option, however, I wasn't sure how consistant the return temp would be.....again, just my lack of experience.

chuck172,

Yes, it's a gate valve. I used a gate valve because that's how I read the diagram that came with the Danfoss. Big problem if I leave it for a while?, or should I replace it immediately? Also, the tank is an Amtrol SX-40V.......after going back to the Amtrol site, I see a SX-60V would be more appropriate. When I do the storage tanks, is it safe to just include another expansion tank?

 

[Nofossil]

If it were me, I'd do the buried black poly pipe and pull some cat5 cable through it to carry low voltage relay control and/or demand signals. Even if you don't go with any fancy control logic. it would be good to see status and temp back in the house. Cat5 give you four pairs of conductors.

The EKO will smoke a lot less if you do the following:

1) Wait until it's COLD outside - colder temps mean more draft

2) Most important: Don't open the door until it's burned down enough to actually need wood. I (and every other new owner) tend to open the door way too often to see what's going on. Opening the door on a gasifier that's cranking along is a bad idea. Learn patience, grasshopper.

 

[Hydronics]

Nice setup, nice building.
I think you'll find return temps. to be quite consistent especially with the 60's capacity. I wouldn't dismiss using a clamp on aquastat on the return to the wood boiler. Wire it in series with the shop thermostat.
If you do bury wire definitely use HDPE well tubing at a minimum (I did, cheap insurance), if you hit it with a shovel you won't cut it. Keep in mind it's not intended to be used as conduit.
You can use multiple expansion tanks to obtain required volume.
Gate valves aren't designed to be throttled but if you're not using storage yet you'll probably be burning 24/7 and that valve will only see flow at startup.
You may want to consider backup power (UPS) if you don't have automatic transfer generator to circulate loop & prevent underground freezing.

 

[in hot water]

Better to have the circ right after that air scoop at the boiler top. I'd put it in the vertical piping below the expansion tank mount. Air removal is much easirer when you pump away from the point of no pressure change PONPC. That point is where you tie in the expansion tank, in your case at the air scoop .

Some valves located in the right spot can facilitate a power purge with 20- 25 psi, then the air scoop just handles small entrained air.

Next job look into an air eliminator, Caleffi, Spirovent, Taco, etc all offer microbubble resorbers. They remove air, small air, much more efficiently.

It could be you have too much velocity with that circ for that scoop style vent to work properly 2- 4 fps feet per second is ideal. Below 2 fps the fluid can't carry the air along, above that the scoop can't separate the air. This graphic shows how a ramp style air purger works. Basically a wide spot in the road to allow a velocity decrease and air to rise up to the vent.

Hard to tell your piping, if it is series that is not the best, you don't want the fossiel boiler heating the wood boiler when it's off, and vice versa.

I'd second the opinion on a plastic condiut for underground wiring. Throw a spare condiut in, it's cheap to do once the trench is open.

hr

 

[sdrobertson]

Very nice setup...Beautiful looking barn also. My install is out in a barn also so I'm not that worried about the smoke coming out the door issue as I would be if it was in the house but Nofossil is right...even after using mine for a year, I still fight the urge to open the top door just to look at the wood situation. Also it will take a few cycles of burning to fully cure all the ceramics and this will help with the smoke out the chimney as you wont have to get rid of this moisture. When its cured and really cooking, you'll be amazed.

 

[strmh]

Again, thanks to everybody for the input.

Perseverance has paid off.....I spent the afternoon purging and burping (the system that is) and finally worked the air out. Turns out most of my heating zones were airbound as well. As of right now, everything seems to be flowing smoothly.

Now to run some conduit and figure out storage.

TH

 

[RobC]

Very nice. To get the black poly, pull pipe, in the ground are there any local irrigation installers. They could do that real quick and not tear into your new lawn etc.... Little side job after work ? When you get to the buildings you can make it look nice by changing over to SCH 40 PVC electrical conduit. Go poly pipe > to male adapter (hose barb x MNPT) > SCH 40 FNPT x glue to glue 90 to vertical stick.....

 

[Gooserider]

Only caution on putting in conduit for Cat5 or any other wire (and I agree, Cat5 in conduit is the way to go) is that wire is not water - minimize the number of bends, and make them gradual. If you look at the elbows and such for the grey plastic NMT conduit, you will notice they are large radius sweeps, not plumbing style elbows... The book says you should not have more than 180* worth of total bends in a single pull, and pulling force should not exceed 25lbs. Excessive pull force, or to sharp bends can damage the cable.

I would use 3/4" stuff for Cat5 and make sure to leave your pull string in place. That way you will have plenty of room to pul several runs of cable if you decide you want it (note that Cat5 is good for lots of low voltage apps, including data and telephone...) and should have minimal pull resistance.

Gooserider