Englander - 25-PAH Dirty Burn

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jah457

New Member
Jan 30, 2015
5
Ontario, Canada
2011 Englander 25-PAH. Just replaced the rope gaskets (glass, door, ash plan) and tighten the hopper latches as the gasket appears good. Exhaust and Intake are clean/clear. Using good hardwood pellets that 'used' to work well

I see others talking about control board settings like 6, 4, 1 and I know what the values mean, BUT, how do I check the board has the correct settings (i.e. factory settings)?

I plug it in, press all 3 lower buttons, release and I get either - and -, or sometimes I get an A on the Heat side. I then unplug again, quickly hold the up and down blower buttons, release, and this it where I get a '3' and it won't allow me to scroll upwards to get a 'c' or a 'd'

How can I ensure the board is set correctly?
 
You do want mode three, which you've got correctly. You definitely don't want your fuel/air/temp trims set to 6/4/1, that's for the PDVC stove. If you've got a really good exhaust and a perfectly clean stove it might run ok like that (and give off tremendous heat), but if it's set like that, it's probably gonna run way too rich and give a dirty burn. The factory settings for the PAH is Low Fuel Feed at 1, Low Base Air at 4, and Air on Temp at 1. To adjust these, with the stove on, press the button you want to adjust. Then press both the blower and heat level up or down bottoms at the same time in order to raise or lower these settings. You'll want to make sure those trims are right.

Let's talk a little more about your setup, What is your venting, both intake and exhaust? For example - my PAH has the factory 2" flex hose feeding the stove outside air. The exhaust consists of 3" piping, beginning with a 45* elbow into a 90* elbow taking the exhaust path vertical through 30" of pipe. Then another 90* elbow take the exhaust back horizontal for 24", through the wall, and terminating outside. How long have you had this stove? How much have you burned this year? When did the problem start? What heat setting are you running? Using a thermostat, and if so are you running high/low or on/off mode?

This stove is pretty particular about how you clean it out, especially if you burn it dirty and load up the heat exchanger. I've found that the best technique is to clean out the entire fire box area first. Then I remove the clean out plates and vacuum out what's inside. Then, I take a wooden mallet and beat on the heat exchanger wall (back of the fire-box - wall where the pellets drop out). I don't beat it like I'm trying to break it, but you need to be fairly vigorous. Keep beating until stuff stops falling down into the clean-out ports. Vacuum it up, and then bang on it some more - it usually takes several minutes of beating and vacuuming to really get it cleaned out right, especially if you let it burn dirty. I usually get 3-4x more material out than what is laying there when the covers first come off. You also may need to pull the combustion blower and clean that as well - there are really good video instructions on Englander's website on how to do this. Before you start - you may need to replace the combustion blower gasket, so make sure you have a spare, or a suitable gasket making material to replace it.

Having that heat exchanger clean makes a tremendous difference on how the stove performs (assuming you have no other air leaks). If everything is truly good and clean, we can look at some other suspects.
 
scammer, thx for the detailed post. I just finished cleaning the exhaust blower and it really needed it, unfortunately I wasn't able to save the gasket. Can I use high temp silicon alone w/o a gasket?

I have a 3" chimney that goes straight out for 1.5', a 90 degree, and then 4' 1-foot sections vertically. This stove was burning very well a couple of months ago. I noticed my ash pan wasn't sealing well so I replaced that gasket along with the glass and door gaskets.

One I get it back together I will try the settings you mentioned below.

Again, thx for your help
John
You do want mode three, which you've got correctly. You definitely don't want your fuel/air/temp trims set to 6/4/1, that's for the PDVC stove. If you've got a really good exhaust and a perfectly clean stove it might run ok like that (and give off tremendous heat), but if it's set like that, it's probably gonna run way too rich and give a dirty burn. The factory settings for the PAH is Low Fuel Feed at 1, Low Base Air at 4, and Air on Temp at 1. To adjust these, with the stove on, press the button you want to adjust. Then press both the blower and heat level up or down bottoms at the same time in order to raise or lower these settings. You'll want to make sure those trims are right.

Let's talk a little more about your setup, What is your venting, both intake and exhaust? For example - my PAH has the factory 2" flex hose feeding the stove outside air. The exhaust consists of 3" piping, beginning with a 45* elbow into a 90* elbow taking the exhaust path vertical through 30" of pipe. Then another 90* elbow take the exhaust back horizontal for 24", through the wall, and terminating outside. How long have you had this stove? How much have you burned this year? When did the problem start? What heat setting are you running? Using a thermostat, and if so are you running high/low or on/off mode?

This stove is pretty particular about how you clean it out, especially if you burn it dirty and load up the heat exchanger. I've found that the best technique is to clean out the entire fire box area first. Then I remove the clean out plates and vacuum out what's inside. Then, I take a wooden mallet and beat on the heat exchanger wall (back of the fire-box - wall where the pellets drop out). I don't beat it like I'm trying to break it, but you need to be fairly vigorous. Keep beating until stuff stops falling down into the clean-out ports. Vacuum it up, and then bang on it some more - it usually takes several minutes of beating and vacuuming to really get it cleaned out right, especially if you let it burn dirty. I usually get 3-4x more material out than what is laying there when the covers first come off. You also may need to pull the combustion blower and clean that as well - there are really good video instructions on Englander's website on how to do this. Before you start - you may need to replace the combustion blower gasket, so make sure you have a spare, or a suitable gasket making material to replace it.

Having that heat exchanger clean makes a tremendous difference on how the stove performs (assuming you have no other air leaks). If everything is truly good and clean, we can look at some other suspects.
 
scammer, thx for the detailed post. I just finished cleaning the exhaust blower and it really needed it, unfortunately I wasn't able to save the gasket. Can I use high temp silicon alone w/o a gasket?

I have a 3" chimney that goes straight out for 1.5', a 90 degree, and then 4' 1-foot sections vertically. This stove was burning very well a couple of months ago. I noticed my ash pan wasn't sealing well so I replaced that gasket along with the glass and door gaskets.

One I get it back together I will try the settings you mentioned below.

Again, thx for your help
John

I am sure that will seal it, its up to you if you want to deal with that mess the next time you have to take it apart. Definitely let us know how things work out after its put back together. If it is still not right we will look at some other possibilities.
 
acammer, first I apologize about my auto-correct changing your name above to 'scammer' instead of 'acammer'.. Dang computers :-)

I checked my settings and it was 1, 1, and 1. So I reset them to 1, 4, and 1 but was still getting a poor burn so I increased to 1, 6, 1 and it seems to have a clean but. Can you explain what exactly the 3 settings do (Low Fuel Feed at 1, Low Base Air at 4, and Air on Temp at 1.)?

Also, this morning it took 22 minutes for the convection blower to kick in. Needless to say, I had a fire box filled with flames and then a sooty window. Would this be an issue with the heat temp thermocouple not sensing the heat in the exhaust soon enough?

I appreciate your help, I'm half way there to a good burn again.
 
No problem on the autocorrect, I thought it was pretty funny. 22 minutes for the convection blower probably isn't out of spec, depending on a few variable (feed rate, ambient temp inside and out, etc). It sounds like you're startup cycle is pretty slow and dirty.. How full is the burn-pot before it lights off?

I've notice with mine that the placement of the burnpot in the cradle has a profound effect on how quickly (and thus how cleanly) the stove starts. If I have the burn pot to the extreme back right of the the stove, closest to the ignitor, it starts MUCH quicker than if I had it say in the extreme left front. Interestingly enough, once it's running I get the cleanest burn if the pot is in that extreme left front position. But if I start with it there, its usually takes a lot longer to start, and it'll be full to almost overflowing before it lights up. When it starts it'll smoke a LOT before it lights, and then once it gets rolling there is way too much fuel and it'll soot things up quite a bit. If the stove is set to heat range 9 it makes things worse once it comes out of startup because it starts really pouring the fuel on. Some times it'll clean up after an hour and stabilize, some times it'll just stay dirty.

Conversely, if I keep the burnpot to the back right of the cradle it'll start up within 5-6 minutes with a not even 1/3 full burn pot, and it won't soot up a bit. Goes right into heat range 9 cleanly, and convection blower usually hits just after it goes out of startup, around 15 minutes. Once it's running I open the door and move it to the front left where it burns the nicest - not sure why that is, but I've played with it enough to confirm a difference.

So, those three buttons - I call them trim settings. First we'll talk about the one you never change - Air on Temp. This setting has to do with how the controller responds to the temp sensor - what it takes to show proof of flame, exit startup, turn on/off convection blower, etc. This is always suppose to be set at 1 on this stove, I've never once seen anything else in all the research and reading I've done on here.

Next is the Low Fuel Feed - this is essentially a trim control for the fuel, the higher the number, the more time the auger runs at it's given heat range, and the more fuel is fed. 1 is probably right where you want this as you're fighting a rich (too much fuel) condition. If you were having an issue of the fire going out on the lower heat settings you might consider raising this (only after attempting to fix with the low base air settings - see below), or in my case I'm trying to extract maximum heat so I'm running this at 5 - that's the highest my stove will tolerate on heat range 9 without going dirty. You'll find that tuning the fuel as a more profound effect on the higher heat ranges and thus is more suitable for adjusting those high heat range burns.

Finally there is the Low Base Air - this is a trim for the combustion blower. It's important to note that the settings on this are not "full range" and don't always effect every heat range. Let me explain. On heat range 9 you can set the the LBA anywhere, 1 to 9, and it does not impact the combustion blower, it runs at full speed. As the heat ranges begin to drop this control starts to have more effect - I think of it more as a tuning tool for the lower heat ranges. On heat range 1 the combustion blower steps up each LBA settings from 1-6 - at 6 the combustion blower is at full speed so 7,8,9 do not yield any further adjustment. You gotta remember that this control is used in something like 7-8 different model stoves (hence all the different "modes") as so it's sorta a one size fits all tool.

My approach to tuning the stove is to get it started and running clean, and then crank it up to heat range 9 and begin increasing the fuel trim. I then sit back and watch the fire. If I see the flames hitting the top of the fire box and bending over, along with black tips of smoke, I know I need to back the LFF off a bit. If I see the occasional "lean surge" (fire dies down some, almost to just within the burn pot) I know I'm in a good, clean running place. Then, I lower the heat setting to 1, let the stove settle for a while, and then again observe. I'm looking for a flame that just comes up out of the burn pot on occasion, and "lean surges" to where I can't see it at all. I keep lowering the LBA (I usually start at 6) until I those surges almost go away to where I can always see the flame. For my stove, it usually runs great at 5/4/1, but your venting will impact what settings work for you. 1/6/1 is as lean as you can go, if it won't run clean at those settings you've got entirely too much venting (not your case) or some airflow issues (leaks) that need to be addressed.

For you, I'd clean the stove real good (if it's run real dirty you might need to do the plates off heat exchanger beating - again!) and then start it up with the burn pot in the back left corner of the cradle. I'd run it at 1/6/1, and if it's getting dirty on startup I'd maybe try to go into heat range 1 right off the bat until it cleans up, and then crank it up. Let me know if any of that helps!
 
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I am sure that will seal it, its up to you if you want to deal with that mess the next time you have to take it apart. Definitely let us know how things work out after its put back together. If it is still not right we will look at some other possibilities.

Been using red hi temp RTV in lieu of a fiberglass mat gasket on the CA (exhaust blower) housing for years and years with no issue. Disassembly is a simple matter of inserting a putty knife between the outer housing and the inner housing (after removing the securing bolts of course) and slightly prying up. The rtv will release the housing no issue. I clean all the old rtv with the putty knife and lay down a new bead and reinstall the outer housing after I've cleaned the transition and expeller fan.

No biggie, besides, the 'glass gaskets are very fragile and really only single use.
 
acammer and SidecarFlip, thx so much for your input. Because we've been at -26C overnights for a month now, I ended up buying a new 25-PAH as I didn't have the time to continue troubleshooting the original PAH, and the cost of the supplemental electrical heating was killing us. Naturally the new stove worked perfect with the exact same settings and pellets as the old stove. What I have realized now is the original stove didn't have enough combustion air for a clean burn. I removed the combustion blower and sure enough it was coated with a heavy (hardened) layer of carbon, possibly causing a slower RPM. Once the warmer weather comes I will soak the combustion blower fan blades and housing to remove the carbon and test the stove again.

I'l provide updates when I complete the cleaning/testing of the original PAH. I guess I'll have a PAH for my garage now too! :-)
 
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I guess thats a good cure. I've been known to do things like that before myself when my frustration level becomes acute.......

If you are goint to 'soak' the CA blower wheel to remove the buildup, a would suggest a long soak in water and in sa much as removing the wheel from the motor will probably be impossible (the blower wheel will be heat locked to the shaft), what you need to do is take a bowl of sufficient diamter to allow you to submerge the wheel and ourside housing in water with the motor on top, suspended on some type of bracing to keep the motor part out od the water and let it soak, the longer the better actually. AWater will loosen the deposits handily, allowing you to remove them easily. Most will actually slide off.

You just don't want to submerge the motor or any electrical component.
 
Thx again for the help

jah457




I guess thats a good cure. I've been known to do things like that before myself when my frustration level becomes acute.......

If you are goint to 'soak' the CA blower wheel to remove the buildup, a would suggest a long soak in water and in sa much as removing the wheel from the motor will probably be impossible (the blower wheel will be heat locked to the shaft), what you need to do is take a bowl of sufficient diamter to allow you to submerge the wheel and ourside housing in water with the motor on top, suspended on some type of bracing to keep the motor part out od the water and let it soak, the longer the better actually. AWater will loosen the deposits handily, allowing you to remove them easily. Most will actually slide off.

You just don't want to submerge the motor or any electrical component.
 
No problem. Been playing with this stuff for a lot of years. Sometimes easy sometimes frustrating.
 
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