englander 25 pah issues

[smelm0]

1. very poor customer support. ok dvd and documentation but have only spoken to mfr once after I gave up on calling and emailed them. now my emails go unanswered.
2. unit is about a month old and in that time I've been disappointed in its performance( as in btu production). thought I'd b doing a lot of sweating as some of my friends report. here is the rest of my story:
a. have used predominantly green supreme. tried a few other brands with similar results-firebox when it on mode tends to b in the 425 area with hot air blowing off the unit in the 150 area. disturbed about the inefficiency of the heat loss. did see a significant uptick in temp with natures own pellet from tractor supply but they don't carry it now. I sit a heavy piece of metal stock on the door and rest it against the vents to try to capture more heat and send it into the room area.
b. unit operates with a remote in on off mode with a 1 degree swing. set at 72 and unit correctly cuts out at 73 but doesn't seem to kick on at 71. I often see room temps of 68. maybe it is on at 71 but takes some time to raise the rooms temp up to setting.
c. use about a bag a day but of late ,a little more than a week, experiencing sooting of the glass predominantly around the hinged portion and the bottom. the firebox is blackened too. notice smoke leaving the vent pipe up the masonry 3" flue liner to the roof which I don't think occurred prior.
d. fire is yellowish for the first 3-5 inches then seems to orange up as it licks the bottom of the heat exchanger. upped the low air setting from 4 to 6 to c if I could make the fire hotter and taller. just a wee bit of bigness change really. nothing dramatic
e. if I really squeeze the door shut, I get a miniscule improvement but nothing significant. thinking maybe something minor with the gasket. bought a new one but haven't installed yet since unit is so new.

that's about it. looking for input to c if I can rid myself of sooting and get unit to perform better if that's a doable.

thanks

 

[acammer]

Mode C sounds wrong, the PAH is suppose to operate in mode 3. From what I understand ESW uses the same controller on a variety of stoves, and has different modes for their various stoves. That very well may be part of your problem. Running flat out 9/9 (LFF4/LBA9) I see around 200-210*F temps right at the heat exchanger. It takes some time to get up to those temps, if you're short cycling on the thermostat you're never going to see optimum performance. Your pellet consumption seems very low. On high this stove should consume at least 4lbs/hr - a bag on high should make it about 10hrs, a full hopper just over a day.

Secondly, if you can get an improvement you can notice by cranking down on the gasket, you probably need to go ahead and make sure that's sealed up better. From what I've found you need to do everything you can with this stove to ensure you get maximum airflow. I would get the LBA right up to 9, and then start increasing the LFF till you get to a place where you don't get black soot on the glass (you're still going to get the white/grey haze). You definitely shouldn't have smoke out the exhaust, needs more air and less fuel for sure.

I'd get the gaskets checked and replaced as needed, make sure everything (including the vent piping) is well cleaned up. Double check the mode and make sure that's correct. Then I would crank up and start fine tuning - if you need maximum heat you'll want to get your combustion airflow up high (LBA 9) and then keep adding fuel (increase LFF) until you get to a rich condition (ie. sooting the glass, smoky tipped flames) and then back off the fuel a bit. If you're looking to maximize efficiency at the expense of max heat you'll do the opposite - drop to the stock settings of LFF of 1, LBA of 4 , and then add airflow if needed to eliminate a rich condition.

You never mentioned the specifics about your venting - sometimes there are details about the exhaust or intake air that are significant.

 

[smelm0]

Mode C sounds wrong, the PAH is suppose to operate in mode 3. From what I understand ESW uses the same controller on a variety of stoves, and has different modes for their various stoves. That very well may be part of your problem. Running flat out 9/9 (LFF4/LBA9) I see around 200-210*F temps right at the heat exchanger. It takes some time to get up to those temps, if you're short cycling on the thermostat you're never going to see optimum performance. Your pellet consumption seems very low. On high this stove should consume at least 4lbs/hr - a bag on high should make it about 10hrs, a full hopper just over a day.

Secondly, if you can get an improvement you can notice by cranking down on the gasket, you probably need to go ahead and make sure that's sealed up better. From what I've found you need to do everything you can with this stove to ensure you get maximum airflow. I would get the LBA right up to 9, and then start increasing the LFF till you get to a place where you don't get black soot on the glass (you're still going to get the white/grey haze). You definitely shouldn't have smoke out the exhaust, needs more air and less fuel for sure.

I'd get the gaskets checked and replaced as needed, make sure everything (including the vent piping) is well cleaned up. Double check the mode and make sure that's correct. Then I would crank up and start fine tuning - if you need maximum heat you'll want to get your combustion airflow up high (LBA 9) and then keep adding fuel (increase LFF) until you get to a rich condition (ie. sooting the glass, smoky tipped flames) and then back off the fuel a bit. If you're looking to maximize efficiency at the expense of max heat you'll do the opposite - drop to the stock settings of LFF of 1, LBA of 4 , and then add airflow if needed to eliminate a rich condition.

You never mentioned the specifics about your venting - sometimes there are details about the exhaust or intake air that are significant.

 

[smelm0]

thanx acammer for the quick reply
I'm unclear what you refer to as modes either c or 3. in the interim, I've snugged up the hinges, etc on the door. set lff to 3 and lba 9 and left air on burn at the factory setting of one. I reset the remote to hi lo instead of off and on. just thinking it might work better as with less soot maybe less short cycling you refer to. I clean the unit diligently each day with a vac and putty knife. don't find many clinkers. don't know if that's significant or not.
my setup in the living room is pretty straight forward. the unit is vent piped with 3" dbl wall for about 7' till it enters a flex steel single wall flue which goes the rest of the way up my fireplace chimney which is about 15' more of upward travel. the air enters also from the masonry flue. mine is 12". a masked 3" alum duct into 2" one which was supplied by the mfr. maybe 4' in toto.
must say that in the early going with settings at 1,4,1 and even full out at 9,9. the unit didn't push out enough heat but did not create any soot. just fly ash. also forgot to mention that I ringed the outside of the door glass with fiberglass to make sure it wasn't leaking fresh air there.
the unit is shut down for cleaning now and as I'm off to visit my mom in brooklyn won't b able to eval till tomorrow but will b able to view your comments on my cell if you reply today.
tomorrow might try the reverse as you suggested as in 1,4 and upping the air on burn from one to maybe 3.

 

[acammer]

thanx acammer for the quick reply
I'm unclear what you refer to as modes either c or 3. in the interim, I've snugged up the hinges, etc on the door. set lff to 3 and lba 9 and left air on burn at the factory setting of one. I reset the remote to hi lo instead of off and on. just thinking it might work better as with less soot maybe less short cycling you refer to. I clean the unit diligently each day with a vac and putty knife. don't find many clinkers. don't know if that's significant or not.
my setup in the living room is pretty straight forward. the unit is vent piped with 3" dbl wall for about 7' till it enters a flex steel single wall flue which goes the rest of the way up my fireplace chimney which is about 15' more of upward travel. the air enters also from the masonry flue. mine is 12". a masked 3" alum duct into 2" one which was supplied by the mfr. maybe 4' in toto.
must say that in the early going with settings at 1,4,1 and even full out at 9,9. the unit didn't push out enough heat but did not create any soot. just fly ash. also forgot to mention that I ringed the outside of the door glass with fiberglass to make sure it wasn't leaking fresh air there.
the unit is shut down for cleaning now and as I'm off to visit my mom in brooklyn won't b able to eval till tomorrow but will b able to view your comments on my cell if you reply today.
tomorrow might try the reverse as you suggested as in 1,4 and upping the air on burn from one to maybe 3.

I think Hi/Low is the way to go - start up is not very efficient, and it uses some decent juice to run the ignitor. You definitely want mode 3 - with the stove down unplug and then plug back in the power, then press both the up and down buttons on the blower speed and that will show you what mode the stove is in. LFF3 and LBA9 should yield a hot clean burn on high - you may have problems with that going out on the lower heat settings, you just have to test and see. You'll also find that if you can run the stove for longer periods you'll get more efficiency and heat out of the stove - it takes a while to warm the heat exchanger up, but once it's warm it'll keep giving that heat for a while.

I may have confused you about getting the most fuel efficient burn, you want to set up like factory (LFF 1 LBA 4 AOT 1) and then add air (LBA) as needed to eliminate any rich condition. The AOT should always be set at one as I understand it. Let us know how you make out. I'm pretty new to my PAH as well and also looking to maximize heat out of it. I've done everything I know how, I'm hoping to get some more insight from ESW. Mike Holton is a forum member here on as well as a ESW tech of some sort and has a wealth of information on these stoves - he runs a PAH in his own home. I'm hoping he'll chime in on one of these treads about getting more heat from the PAH.

 

[OhioBurner©]

smelm0... So you have 7+15= 22 feet of 3" flue? The manual states for runs over 15' you need to increase to 4". Also is your liner uninsulated? That could be hurting your draft further. I have a similar venting about 4' to a 15' high masonry chimney, but with a 5.5" liner. Is yours exterior chimney or interior? That will hinder/help your uninsulated liner.

I've noticed mine is quite susceptible to clogging up. Have you tried the leaf blower trick? Since mine started acting up I've had to do the leaf blower cleaning about every 2 weeks. Seems once it starts burning sooty, no amount of LBA will help since the restriction is limiting the flow.

I think the root cause after much troubleshooting is the gaskets on mine... or actually the stove surface seems to be warped not letting the gaskets seal. Not sure if new gaskets are going to help me or not.

As an aside, with a clean stove mine runs best at factory 1-4-1. For max heat it makes sense going a little higher but even at factory with the heat cranked up to 9 I worry how hot this stove gets... I don't even like running it on 9 let alone cranking up the other numbers! But I guess if your using a thermostat it wont run on 9 for too long. I've never bothered with a thermostat, conditions rarely change fast enough in a house that I can't get it to even out fairly well just making a change in the morning or evening and letting it run steady.

 

[smelm0]

smelm0... So you have 7+15= 22 feet of 3" flue? The manual states for runs over 15' you need to increase to 4". Also is your liner uninsulated? That could be hurting your draft further. I have a similar venting about 4' to a 15' high masonry chimney, but with a 5.5" liner. Is yours exterior chimney or interior? That will hinder/help your uninsulated liner.

I've noticed mine is quite susceptible to clogging up. Have you tried the leaf blower trick? Since mine started acting up I've had to do the leaf blower cleaning about every 2 weeks. Seems once it starts burning sooty, no amount of LBA will help since the restriction is limiting the flow.

I think the root cause after much troubleshooting is the gaskets on mine... or actually the stove surface seems to be warped not letting the gaskets seal. Not sure if new gaskets are going to help me or not.

As an aside, with a clean stove mine runs best at factory 1-4-1. For max heat it makes sense going a little higher but even at factory with the heat cranked up to 9 I worry how hot this stove gets... I don't even like running it on 9 let alone cranking up the other numbers! But I guess if your using a thermostat it wont run on 9 for too long. I've never bothered with a thermostat, conditions rarely change fast enough in a house that I can't get it to even out fairly well just making a change in the morning or evening and letting it run steady.

dear ohio burner and acammer
last run at mode 3 with 3,9,1 settings produced a worse result: lower temps, more soot and too much build up of pellets on the burner pot for efficient burning. basically think it was suffocating itself. might b related to the increase of feed.
inside view shows too many pellets which are basically smoldering, creating little heat and much smoke. not a warm house in the least either.
as to the length of flue and ohio's experience, the only time I spoke with esw, they thought that my lack of btu's was a result of my 7' of 3" going into a single wall 5" flue they wanted it 3" all the way up. they thought too much draft wicking away heat from the firebox. I told them I had a ss 3" flex pipe about 15' long and they told me to run with it. my temps at the firebox still were around 425 and air exiting around 150.nothing really changed in terms of performance except that over time more and more soot and smoking has developed.
what I'm doing today: have reset unit to 1,6,1 and it is in mode 3 still. will do a thorough cleaning as I always do. I'm unfamiliar with the leaf blower cleaningbut I sense that you're on to something. you guys will have to get me up to speed there. I have a leaf blower and its electric so should b convenient to use indoors. I bought gasket material at lowes yesterday so I can renew the gasket which I've stated is only a month old. will test out some with a dollar bill when the unit is cooler. as to warping on ohio's unit, gaskets make up for the lack of precision. the pellet body is steel so it moves around a bit as it expands and contracts with heat, unlike cast iron. but for $12 at lowes you can get .625 of gasket rope and a tube of silicon high temp sealer and give it a shot. if your gasket is young like mine, I tend to think its not the issue and I'm beginning to get more interested in the leaf blower thing. will try to source it till I hear from you guys about it.
I have a bit over another month for my 90 day refund from home depot. am also leaving for fla on 1/1 ish till spring. been mulling over just returning it and whatever pellets I have remaining and relying on my englander wood stove to see me thru from the end of march. I've been using the englander wood stove for about 10 yrs now and although its not the most efficient, it always works well enough. it was the main reason I went with their pellet stove. just can't believe the pain in the butt this has turned into.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The stove must be off and cold, do all of your brush work and deep cleaning first (ash traps, combustion blower, and so on goes the list) you end the cleaning session with the leaf blower it will get stuff that you left behind or didn't quite reach.

Leaf blower is used out doors, you use the vacuum capability that must be there to use it on a pellet stove.

The leaf blower is used as a very high flow rate air pump, you place the vacuum pipe around or sealed against the vent pipe, and make certain you leave the door open or disconnect the vacuum switch tubing from the stove side (this is to protect the diaphragm in the switch from being ruptured (some switches are delicate it seems).

My switch must be made out of thick plate steel because I do not open the door or remove the tube from the stove side.

 

[smelm0]

The stove must be off and cold, do all of your brush work and deep cleaning first (ash traps, combustion blower, and so on goes the list) you end the cleaning session with the leaf blower it will get stuff that you left behind or didn't quite reach.

Leaf blower is used out doors, you use the vacuum capability that must be there to use it on a pellet stove.

The leaf blower is used as a very high flow rate air pump, you place the vacuum pipe around or sealed against the vent pipe, and make certain you leave the door open or disconnect the vacuum switch tubing from the stove side (this is to protect the diaphragm in the switch from being ruptured (some switches are delicate it seems).

My switch must be made out of thick plate steel because I do not open the door or remove the tube from the stove side.

thanks smokey and others.
here's where I b as of now. unit cleaned of major soot issue. disassembled 7' of vent pipe to 3" flex vent connector. lots of sooted up ash. brushed and ash vac'd. leaf blower would have b done in living room tee clean out but I can't seem to find the attachments to make the blower into a vac. vac'd out end of combustion fan as best I could. do not have a gasket for it so wouldn't disassemble same.
unit set on mode 3 and 1,6,1. its controlled with remote set for 73 with a 1 degree swing on the on and off pattern.it didn't take much but less than an hr for the firebox to reach 450 and the air off the vents at 150.
the flame is pretty good but I think still a little weak nearest the heat exchanger. the unit in little over an hr is showing 460 on the firebox and 165 at the air vent. you can c once again that mr soot is forming on the left corner hinge side. it will I expect continue to expand down and toward the handle side, leaving a u shaped unsooted portion in the center which will covered with fly ash after 24 hrs of continuous operation. also, still see some smoke not too much exiting the flue at the top of the roof. think this means that the burn can b improved upon. have 3 bags of another brand of pellet. just might throw them in to evaluate performance.
then the only 2 things left for me to try are replacing the door gasket and cleaning out the combustion fan but I'm getting pretty well p****d off already and thinking since I'm leaving 1/1, might just as well use it as best I can till I leave. then return it for full refund with whatever pellets I have and do the best I can with my wood stove alone when I return to ny from fla end of march.
really disappointed in this unit. can't fathom why a 450 firebox only produces a 150 current of air. where are the 300 degrees going??? thought of placing some 1/4" flat stock into each of the vents slots and c if I can capture more heat. still haven't. just can't c myself struggling some more and still coming up short so to speak.

 

[OhioBurner©]

smelm... seems like your having very similar problems to me. I don't think Englander gave you good advice on the vent pipe situation (just imho) but that may or may not even be related. Your not getting enough air flow. At least now your not. With all that soot your going to be clogging your exhaust up. If your venting is restricted, your not going to do much good even going up to 9 on the LBA. I tried that with mine. When its clean, adjusting the LBA makes a noticeable effect, when its dirty I can take it to 9 and not see a change. When I had everything coated with soot, sometimes the soot would even be burning on the glass when I opened the door. Pellets would be built up and smoldering (still burning even after the stove went through shutdown). Flame would be dull orange and lazy, if I opened the door the flames would even come out through it sometimes. The regular and 'monthly' cleanings were not fixing the problem. The leaf blower trick (there is a thread about it here recently, try a search, or look up youtube for video) really helped me so I think things were clogged up somewhere behind the exhaust chambers. Basically I just pop off the rain cap on my chimney and place the leaf blower suction side into the liner and seal it with a couple wraps of duct tape. Open up the stove door, and turn the power on to the leaf blower. I bang on the back of the firebox while its running to loosen stuff too. It burned clean and normal for a while after each LBT cleaning, but I had to do it again after 2 weeks.

I think it was Smokey who said in my thread that these stoves are 'self polluting'. Great description. Even a great working stove without proper cleaning and maintenance will eventually go downhill. But just about most things that can go wrong will cause this to accelerate, tough part is figuring out exactly what is causing it. The cleaning got mine back to normal but whatever problem that's causing the 'clog' is still there. My guess on mine currently is my gasket issue. I think the air leak is just making the burn a little dirtier and causing the stove to need to be cleaned much more frequently. I haven't had a chance to go anywhere yet to look at gaskets. A the center of the door at the top the stove is bowed in about 3/16", and around 1/8" bow on in the middle of the ash pan. But its the ash pan that is looser. The door has a huge and more compressible gasket. The ash pan has that flat wide gasket. I'll have to figure out if I can fit a thicker gasket on the ash pan. Right now I can actually insert a dollar bill into the ash pan while its closed shut, and also while half through the gasket I can move it left to right up to the ash pan latches on each side.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You never do a leaf blower cleaning in the house.

Where is your OAK going there are length limits on that as well as there are limits on the placement and size of the OAK line, just as there is on the exhaust vent.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Should not be able to insert dollar bill past the gaskets ever.

Air leaks screw up the air flow through the burn pot and makes for a dirty (ashy, sooty) burn which in turns makes more ash end up in the works and decreases heat transfer and so forth and so on.

 

[smelm0]

Should not be able to insert dollar bill past the gaskets ever.

Air leaks screw up the air flow through the burn pot and makes for a dirty (ashy, sooty) burn which in turns makes more ash end up in the works and decreases heat transfer and so forth and so on.

dear smokey and ohio
kind of distressing to b on our own and relying on our own experience and ingenuity but hey that's where we are.
I thoroughly agree with both you guys that these units and prob all pellet stoves are self polluting. so scrupulous cleaning is the tix. as for me, as I said the co. didn't think my setup was a negative just wanted me to make sure it all was 3".
the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????
secondly, if as smokey says I can't avail myself of the leaf blower technique since my vent exits thru my masonry fireplace 12" flue, I'd have to address cleaning of the combustion fan directly. have been a bit head shy to do that without a backup gasket.maybe frustration will get the better of me. my house is 70 and the outside is 35 so even with bad combustion I'm comfortable but realize that this will not last.
ohio: thanks for your lengthy feedback. with the kind of gasket situation you describe, I'd jump on a replacement. the mfr lists a $30 deal? I'd just buy a .625 or 1/2" gasket with silicon high heat sealer and just do it. from depot or lowes, etc not more than a 10 min. job really. why procrastinate???
smokey: my outside air kit piggy backs the vent but instead of attaching to the 3" flex pipe it just hangs over what was the fireplace flue but now is just a block of fiberglass and a shelfthe rest of the run is 12" masonry flue. it basically sits on the fireplace shelf. and can access fresh air there. its 3" alum duct with a mesh protective cover snaked down to a 2" alum duct which was supplied by the co.all neatly snugged up with fiberglass to protect us from the elements.maybe 4'
total length.
still think there's just a tweak out there for my situation and then I can take it to the bank. if not, thinking a more expensive stove like the quadra fire is in my future. still vacillating. will do the dollar test tomorrow when the unit is cool but just can't seem to swallow a gasket prob so early in a month of use

 

[smelm0]

dear smokey and ohio
kind of distressing to b on our own and relying on our own experience and ingenuity but hey that's where we are.
I thoroughly agree with both you guys that these units and prob all pellet stoves are self polluting. so scrupulous cleaning is the tix. as for me, as I said the co. didn't think my setup was a negative just wanted me to make sure it all was 3".
the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????
secondly, if as smokey says I can't avail myself of the leaf blower technique since my vent exits thru my masonry fireplace 12" flue, I'd have to address cleaning of the combustion fan directly. have been a bit head shy to do that without a backup gasket.maybe frustration will get the better of me. my house is 70 and the outside is 35 so even with bad combustion I'm comfortable but realize that this will not last.
ohio: thanks for your lengthy feedback. with the kind of gasket situation you describe, I'd jump on a replacement. the mfr lists a $30 deal? I'd just buy a .625 or 1/2" gasket with silicon high heat sealer and just do it. from depot or lowes, etc not more than a 10 min. job really. why procrastinate???
smokey: my outside air kit piggy backs the vent but instead of attaching to the 3" flex pipe it just hangs over what was the fireplace flue but now is just a block of fiberglass and a shelfthe rest of the run is 12" masonry flue. it basically sits on the fireplace shelf. and can access fresh air there. its 3" alum duct with a mesh protective cover snaked down to a 2" alum duct which was supplied by the co.all neatly snugged up with fiberglass to protect us from the elements.maybe 4'
total length.
still think there's just a tweak out there for my situation and then I can take it to the bank. if not, thinking a more expensive stove like the quadra fire is in my future. still vacillating. will do the dollar test tomorrow when the unit is cool but just can't seem to swallow a gasket prob so early in a month of use

oh forgot: peeps make a big deal about pellet brand. I've been using green supreme from depot. some peeps like it some don't. since I'm new to this biz I only know that when I used natures own from tractor supply I got a significant heat rise, almost 40 degrees. I have just 3 bags left so I think I'm going to use them now and eval. others I c swear by soft wood pellets and others this and that. why there's so much diversity is beyond my understanding. these units are pretty dumb downed delivery sys for burning pellets. shouldn't vary too much unless there's a lot of spin out there. maybe finding the right pellet for the right stove is key. have friends who swear by lignetics. others green supreme. others almost anything. hard to find the right path here.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

That OAK situation is not ideal, the "outside" air may not be fresh since is directly below the exhaust even though the exhaust is higher it than the minimum 3 feet from the OAK termination will depend on whether or not enough of the exhaust gets sucked downward to cause you an issue or reduced to insignificance before any of it enters the chimney and gets into the OAK .

To get more heat out of the exchanger the second of the lower three settings may need lowering, which if the air coming through that OAK is compromised will further degrade the burn.

 

[OhioBurner©]

the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????

I've never measured the 'air temp' coming from the blower but its never going to be firebox temp. The blower is fairly strong on the PAH and moves a lot of air too, so compared with another stove with a slower blower the air will be lower temp, but there will be more of it, so its equal in heat. I'm not sure if 150 is low for the PAH or not, I'll try to rig something up to test mine or maybe someone else will know. I don't believe the cheapie PAH is going to be as efficient as something like a Harman or that Italian stove that I remember reading about, but the difference shouldn't be huge.

secondly, if as smokey says I can't avail myself of the leaf blower technique since my vent exits thru my masonry fireplace 12" flue, I'd have to address cleaning of the combustion fan directly. have been a bit head shy to do that without a backup gasket.maybe frustration will get the better of me. my house is 70 and the outside is 35 so even with bad combustion I'm comfortable but realize that this will not last.

You have the same setup as mine. Just put the leaf blower on the top of the masonry chimney.

ohio: thanks for your lengthy feedback. with the kind of gasket situation you describe, I'd jump on a replacement. the mfr lists a $30 deal? I'd just buy a .625 or 1/2" gasket with silicon high heat sealer and just do it. from depot or lowes, etc not more than a 10 min. job really. why procrastinate???
smokey: my outside air kit piggy backs the vent but instead of attaching to the 3" flex pipe it just hangs over what was the fireplace flue but now is just a block of fiberglass and a shelfthe rest of the run is 12" masonry flue. it basically sits on the fireplace shelf. and can access fresh air there. its 3" alum duct with a mesh protective cover snaked down to a 2" alum duct which was supplied by the co.all neatly snugged up with fiberglass to protect us from the elements.maybe 4'
total length.
still think there's just a tweak out there for my situation and then I can take it to the bank. if not, thinking a more expensive stove like the quadra fire is in my future. still vacillating. will do the dollar test tomorrow when the unit is cool but just can't seem to swallow a gasket prob so early in a month of use

I only did the dollar bill test a few days ago and have not had a chance to get to a store. And I'm working 7 days straight through next Thursday so not sure how soon it will be. But ok so I can look for what you suggest for gasket, for the door, but what about the ash pan? Its gasket is entirely different and I don't even know if the door can shut with a thick gasket. I will have to look at it when I get home from work tonight. And just like you I'm in a bit of disbelief my newly installed stove needs new gaskets after only a few weeks. Its rather obvious they did not check the gaskets on the refurb, unless the stove warpage happened since I put it in.

Also if your fresh air intake runs up into the chimney... does that mean your chimney is not sealed at the top? Your single wall liner (uninsulated) might run too cool maybe? That would be hurting your draft, and it seems these Englanders need all the help they can get drafting. My liner is uninsulated too fwiw, but its an interior masonry chimney with a plate at the top that's sealed. Its kind of funny though... there were other members on here that said my drafting might be inadequate that I ran 3" just between the stove and the chimney (4'?) that I should have used at least 4". Yet ESW tells you that you can run 3" for 22' which goes against all common advice and what they specify for installation in the manual.

Oh and sorry for the lengthy posts, I do get bored sitting here at work staring at all these computer screens for hours. Hope some of it helps.

 

[smelm0]

like your thinking smokey....
when I installed the oak it was a foot or more away from the flex pipe. they're both in the masonry flue and quite separate. I'll check the mesh at its end tomorrow to c if its clean or cluttered with debris.
you have to b more specific on settings. think you mean the middle setting which is air on burn which is now at 6 but I suspect is not fully functional. think you might b on to something with the oak. will try to troubleshoot tomorrow with an eye toward cleanliness and sealing at the junction where it transitions from 3" alum to 2". I suspect air is getting in to undermine the flame and I don't think its the door gasket. just might b???? as I understand the stove. the combustion fan both pull fresh air in and burned air out.
still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

like your thinking smokey....
when I installed the oak it was a foot or more away from the flex pipe. they're both in the masonry flue and quite separate. I'll check the mesh at its end tomorrow to c if its clean or cluttered with debris.
you have to b more specific on settings. think you mean the middle setting which is air on burn which is now at 6 but I suspect is not fully functional. think you might b on to something with the oak. will try to troubleshoot tomorrow with an eye toward cleanliness and sealing at the junction where it transitions from 3" alum to 2". I suspect air is getting in to undermine the flame and I don't think its the door gasket. just might b???? as I understand the stove. the combustion fan both pull fresh air in and burned air out.
still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????

Not if the exhaust system is pulling out a pile of it and sending it up the flue.

You might not see anything on that OAK since it is the loss of oxygen in the exhaust air that if sucked into the OAK that will degrade the burn although sucking crud in doesn't help after awhile it lowers the volume of air that can be sucked in. Now screens on OAKs can also be a problem because the air flow can get reduced. You want a screen that has far more open area than blocked area and is small meshed enough to keep bees and other flying nest builders out.

There is no cap or screen on my OAK during burn season, both the exhaust vent and the OAK are plugged during the no burn season.

 

[smelm0]

I've never measured the 'air temp' coming from the blower but its never going to be firebox temp. The blower is fairly strong on the PAH and moves a lot of air too, so compared with another stove with a slower blower the air will be lower temp, but there will be more of it, so its equal in heat. I'm not sure if 150 is low for the PAH or not, I'll try to rig something up to test mine or maybe someone else will know. I don't believe the cheapie PAH is going to be as efficient as something like a Harman or that Italian stove that I remember reading about, but the difference shouldn't be huge.

You have the same setup as mine. Just put the leaf blower on the top of the masonry chimney.



I only did the dollar bill test a few days ago and have not had a chance to get to a store. And I'm working 7 days straight through next Thursday so not sure how soon it will be. But ok so I can look for what you suggest for gasket, for the door, but what about the ash pan? Its gasket is entirely different and I don't even know if the door can shut with a thick gasket. I will have to look at it when I get home from work tonight. And just like you I'm in a bit of disbelief my newly installed stove needs new gaskets after only a few weeks. Its rather obvious they did not check the gaskets on the refurb, unless the stove warpage happened since I put it in.

Also if your fresh air intake runs up into the chimney... does that mean your chimney is not sealed at the top? Your single wall liner (uninsulated) might run too cool maybe? That would be hurting your draft, and it seems these Englanders need all the help they can get drafting. My liner is uninsulated too fwiw, but its an interior masonry chimney with a plate at the top that's sealed. Its kind of funny though... there were other members on here that said my drafting might be inadequate that I ran 3" just between the stove and the chimney (4'?) that I should have used at least 4". Yet ESW tells you that you can run 3" for 22' which goes against all common advice and what they specify for installation in the manual.

Oh and sorry for the lengthy posts, I do get bored sitting here at work staring at all these computer screens for hours. Hope some of it helps.

hey ohio
well, my temps show a 450/+or - on the firebox with a simple wood stove thermometer. then I get a rather disappointing 150 heat coming off the air as it exits the louvers. you need to start measuring your performance. its cheap under 10 dollars or a bit more..but where is my 300 degrees going?????smokey thinks I need to look at the air intake. maybe its smothered with debris in the chimney flue. don't thing so. but my flame is not what I'd like. my friends harmans insert burns like a 4th of july fireworks. mine is more like boy scout hot dog event. his flame shoots high like 18" and is straight up like a tower of sparks. nothing like what we have. but obviously his unit is 2.5 times ours in cost. still I was hoping for a better result....

 

[acammer]

You've definitely got an airflow problem if you can't get a clean burn even with the lff on 1. If you can rule out a gasket leak, it's time to take a hard look at the intake air, and the exhaust. This things not a Harman, bit it's not junk either. I see 180-210*F with a stove thermometer stuck on the grill. The PAH has that strong convection blower so you'll see lower temp air, but a lot more of it, it's actually a more efficient heat exchange that way. 180*F if I run LFF 1 LBA 4 and 210*F if I run LFF 5 and LBA 9. Neither of those setting produce any black soot on the glass, just light grey. The burn pot doesn't get built up with any unburned fuel, no smoke at all in the exhaust. I can run a few days straight like that, it never loads up and goes dirty. Until the airflow problems are fixed you'll never get good heat.

 

[smelm0]

You've definitely got an airflow problem if you can't get a clean burn even with the lff on 1. If you can rule out a gasket leak, it's time to take a hard look at the intake air, and the exhaust. This things not a Harman, bit it's not junk either. I see 180-210*F with a stove thermometer stuck on the grill. The PAH has that strong convection blower so you'll see lower temp air, but a lot more of it, it's actually a more efficient heat exchange that way. 180*F if I run LFF 1 LBA 4 and 210*F if I run LFF 5 and LBA 9. Neither of those setting produce any black soot on the glass, just light grey. The burn pot doesn't get built up with any unburned fuel, no smoke at all in the exhaust. I can run a few days straight like that, it never loads up and goes dirty. Until the airflow problems are fixed you'll never get good heat.

dear ohio
please spend the $12 or so for gasket and silicon sealer and see if you arrive at a better marriage. dirty burns are not cool.
let us know how you fare. hope it'll delay the intervals that you'll need to clean the unit, etc.
dear acammer and smokey
you both are pointing toward the air intake. I have a mesh sock over the end of the 3" alum vent to 2" mfr air kit inserted in the masonry flue about a foot away from my flex pipe but in no way interconnected. maybe it's a bit clogged. will try as smokey advises just to leave fully open and eval
will do tomorrow but should b able to c if natures own pellet makes a diff or not in the interim. will load a bag tonight.

a 300 degree lose from exchanger to air exit.... what's that about????? would expect more like a 200 degree drop like from 425 to 200. then we'd b toasty all winter long....

what gives with this new england pellet ad????

 

[OhioBurner©]

Well I do measure with an IR gun plus I leave a magnetic thermometer on the hottest point on the side of the stove. I've never worried about the air temp since that will change with your blower speed and seem counter-intuitive (you could see the actual temperature decrease even if the heat output increases as you increase the blower speed for example). But for the heck of it I strung up a grill surface temp gauge in front of the louvers about an inch air gap to make sure heat isn't conducting through the metal (like 400 degrees right below the louvers). I get about 140-145ºF with the heat/blower set at 4-9 (and factory bottom three settings). Acammer - at what heat settings is your 180-210? You gave the bottom 3 but not the main settings. I assume 9? But yours may read high if its directly touching the metal I would think. I was getting about 215º on the metal between the slots, and of course right below the slot it jumps a couple hundred degrees quickly. I'll run it up to 9 later and check it, but my living room was nearly 80 degrees even with this on 4 yesterday (was in high 30's and low 40's yesterday here).




I plan on replacing gasket as soon as I can get to a lowes or somewhere that has one, probably will be next weekend. Still got to figure out what size I'll need, I was really late getting home last night and just did a quick pot scrape. The ash pan is full so would have to go out a dump it and probably was going to make a mess I'd have to clean up in the bottom of stove, and I've been to sleep deprived as of late so I didn't even touch it. Tonight when I get home I'll pull the ash pan and try to figure out how much thicker a gasket I can get in there. Then there is the hopper lid too, got to figure out what size for that. Yep all 3 gaskets on my stove don't seal. I have 3 other wood stoves, 2 of which have been running for like 6 years and I've never changed a gasket yet.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????

I will attempt to explain the difference in temperature.
Heat exchangers transfer heat. Seems self explanitory. But heat is not measured in degrees. Temperature in degrees = amount of heat x specific heat of the substance / mass of the substance.
So there is a small volume of very hot air moving on one side of the heat exchanger and a larger volume of air moving on the other side of the heat exchanger. Since the air on both sides has basically the same specific heat (the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature by one degree) the output temperature will be

output temperature = input temperature x input volume / output volume

If the combustion blower is moving 80 CFM and the convection blower is moving 200 CFM and the firebox temperature is 450 (made up numbers) The convection temperature would be

450 x 80 cfm / 200 cfm = 180

This would be for a heat exchanger that is 100% efficient. Unfortunately heat exchangers are not and account for most of the stoves inefficiency. So we take the 180 and multiply it by the efficiency rating (typically 76%) and get an output of

180 x 0.76 = 137

So your 150 output sounds reasonable. Reducing the convection setting will increase the air temperature, but will reduce the efficiency and the amount of heat transfered. Heat exchangers work best with the biggest difference in temperature input to output.
That concludes the physics lesson for today. I hope that I have helped you to understand heat transfer better.
Harvey

 

[OhioBurner©]

Thanks Harvey, that was what I was trying to get at but couldn't explain it well. 150º sounded reasonable for air temps I thought but have never measured the actual exit air temp until yesterday. That does sound low if we're talking about the stove on max though, but so does the 450ºF firebox temp (think mine was more like 600-700º on a 9 if I remember correctly, around 900º at the top of the glass).

 

[smelm0]

Well I do measure with an IR gun plus I leave a magnetic thermometer on the hottest point on the side of the stove. I've never worried about the air temp since that will change with your blower speed and seem counter-intuitive (you could see the actual temperature decrease even if the heat output increases as you increase the blower speed for example). But for the heck of it I strung up a grill surface temp gauge in front of the louvers about an inch air gap to make sure heat isn't conducting through the metal (like 400 degrees right below the louvers). I get about 140-145ºF with the heat/blower set at 4-9 (and factory bottom three settings). Acammer - at what heat settings is your 180-210? You gave the bottom 3 but not the main settings. I assume 9? But yours may read high if its directly touching the metal I would think. I was getting about 215º on the metal between the slots, and of course right below the slot it jumps a couple hundred degrees quickly. I'll run it up to 9 later and check it, but my living room was nearly 80 degrees even with this on 4 yesterday (was in high 30's and low 40's yesterday here).

View attachment 147519


I plan on replacing gasket as soon as I can get to a lowes or somewhere that has one, probably will be next weekend. Still got to figure out what size I'll need, I was really late getting home last night and just did a quick pot scrape. The ash pan is full so would have to go out a dump it and probably was going to make a mess I'd have to clean up in the bottom of stove, and I've been to sleep deprived as of late so I didn't even touch it. Tonight when I get home I'll pull the ash pan and try to figure out how much thicker a gasket I can get in there. Then there is the hopper lid too, got to figure out what size for that. Yep all 3 gaskets on my stove don't seal. I have 3 other wood stoves, 2 of which have been running for like 6 years and I've never changed a gasket yet.

dear ohio
it seems when my unit is running more properly I'm showing the same temps on my oven kitchen stove hanging over the louvers as you. sometimes I get it almost to 170 when the firebox is approaching 475 as measured on the left side as you do with a wood stove thermometer. the remote is set to keep the main area around 70 and it does that for what I would say is 15 hrs then with the build up of soot and inefficient burning the temps go down. the firebox running at 300 and the air at maybe 110. btw, I balance a heavy piece of metal on the door to radiate up more heat. that's the silver bar in the photo below the oven thermometer.
where I'm at now: unit on mode 3-settings 1,6,1 ran for about 15hrs before sooty burning is slowing it down.

I'm after the oak this morning. will remove the sock over the end hoping as smokey has suggested, leaving it open will allow more fresh air to b drawn into the unit and result in optimum combustion. when the unit is cool enough will try the dollar test too.
as you can see from the above pix this morning after about 15 hrs of continuous burn the glass is most sooted up with a small ashy center pattern like a u. heat production low and combustion low temp as well.
hey ohio:
sounds like you're working yourself to the bone. as to the thickness of gasket material, I'd suggest definitely running a nice bead of silicon sealer to attach it. that way its flexible enough to make up for irregularities and still create a snug fit.