Englander 25-PDV E2 error Start Failure but works the 2nd time!

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Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
Hello

Pressing the start button feeds the correct amount of pellets now with the new auger motors. No E1 errors. However on 1st start in the morning, the stove fails with an E2 error with the correct amount of unburned pellets in the pot with the temp in the shed at 50 Deg F. Now without touching anything, the start button is pressed again after removing the pellets in the burn pot and the stove starts within 10 mins like it should!

All vacuum and safety switches are good.

So is that the sign of a failing cartridge igniter? See pics below.

Is the Grainger 5" long 3/8" diameter 300 watt igniter the cheapest for $25.55 that works good?
Does the collar on the old igniter slip right on this one?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=4NJG4&op=search&Ntt=4NJG4&N=0&GlobalSearch=true&sst=subset


England Stove Works E2 error code from E codes sheet
E-2:
Failure to start: Auto-ignition equipped stove models (units produced in 2004 and newer) monitor themselves during the "SU" sequence (Startup) when the stove is being put into use. If the unit does not reach its minimum operating temperature within the 20 minute startup period, it will shut down and display the "E-2" code. Should this occur, and the fire does not physically light, the fuel that fed through during the startup attempt should be removed from the burn pot, the burn pot area should be cleaned (if it was not cleaned prior to attempted start) and another start should be attempted. If the unit subsequently does not start on the second attempt, the following should be checked:

Common causes for E-2 codes (check these; more information is below this):

1. Igniter plugged with ash: To clear, vacuum out the burn pot, then insert a toothpick (or a straightened-out paperclip or similar item) into the igniter hole and “ream out” the airspace between the tip of the igniter rod and the backside of the hole. This will allow the heated air to pass through into the firepot, to more readily start the fire on time.

2. Igniter out of position: The igniter must have a standoff, which allows air to pass the tip to light the pellets. If the igniter rod is positioned too close to the hole into the pot, the air cannot get past the tip to light the pellets. Adjusting the igniter back to allow for a larger air gap should correct the problem.

3. If the unit fires but does not continue to run with ample heat to be able to make its proof of fire temp.: The likely issue is a disconnected heat sensor, or the “air on temp” setting being too high. To check the air on temp, push that button and look in the blower speed readout for the setting. It must be set on 1; if set higher, reset to 1 and re-attempt to start the unit. If the stove still doesn’t make it out of startup (particularly if the room fan does not come on), check the heat sensor for possible bad connection. If connected correctly, test the sensor in diagnostic; if the sensor reads a "9" in the heat range and it is connected properly, it’s bad and should be replaced.
MORE Information Concerning E-2 Codes:

A.
The cartridge heater itself, when energized, will start to glow
within two to three minutes of turning the unit on. If the cartridge heater does not glow, the cartridge heater itself and its connections to the control board would need to be checked.


B.
The burn area and the chamber beneath the wear plate should be completely clean. Ash that is left in the burn area from previous fires can retard airflow that is essential for a clean start.
Pay particular attention to the igniter opening to the right of the auger. Ignition is caused by the free flow of combustion air through the chamber which houses the cartridge heater; this air is then superheated as it passes through this chamber out into the burn pot. If this flow of air is restricted, the amount of heated air needed to light the pellets will not be present and the pellets will either not light at all or will take too long to ignite, and the unit will not have sufficient time to reach its operating temperature. To ensure that the airway is clear, it may be necessary to occasionally insert a toothpick or similar implement into the igniter hole and break up the ash that would be causing the obstruction.
This should only be performed when stove is completely cold! After breaking up the obstruction, use an ash vacuum or shop vac to remove the loosened ash from the igniter hole and, after ensuring the unit is otherwise cleaned and ready for service, attempt another start.

C.
When starting the unit, there is no need to place any fuel into the burn pot before lighting; the unit will allow itself enough fuel to sufficiently start. If the unit does not feed any fuel into the burn pot, there will be no fire and an E-2 code should appear. Should this be the case, inspect the auger system itself to ensure that the augers are working correctly; if they are, also ensure that the fuel is not getting hung up in the hopper.

D.
Wet fuel can severely retard the ignition process. Pellet fuel should be stored in a dry, climate controlled area, as the fuel can soak up excessive moisture; therefore, pellet bags should not be opened until fuel is needed.

E.
The position of the cartridge heater in its chamber can effect lighting as well. If the cartridge heater is not properly centered on the hole in the burn pot, or if its depth back into that hole is not correct, it can have the effect of blocking the opening with its own tip, restricting airflow. Also, if it is not centered, airflow would not effectively surround it before reaching the fuel, causing inconsistent starting.

F.
Other things that can cause a failure to start include:
  1. Non functional exhaust blower: This would give an E-2, followed by an E-1 as stated above.
  2. Top or bottom auger motor not running: No fuel flow would result in a fail to start.
  3. A non functional or disconnected heat sensor: If the unit does not read sufficient heat within the startup sequence, it will assume that the unit did not start and give an E-2 code. This can happen with a bad heat sensor, even if the unit starts normally and does get hot, and a mis-programmed "air on temp" setting; must be on 1.
 

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Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
CSS
cold shed syndrome strikes again.
No, not this time Smoke. It was 50 Deg F the 1st time when it did not start. That really is not too cold like below freezing! Then I cleaned the pot and tried again right away and it started fine. That seems to tell me that the igniter is not coming on quick enough and the juice the ignitor got the first time prepped it so it worked fine the second start because it had some warmth in it already!
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
Sounds like he has a diagnosis. ??

As for the CSS.. I dont think that was the problem with the Quad. Or this Englander...
Hi Dexter, as for the CSS, you were right about the Quad because we found a new control box would start the combustion blower higher to create enough vacuum when starting on low or medium heat level. Athough I did sell it before I could get a new control box to test it! Remember the Pelpro Bay View had exhaust blower vacuum trouble in the very cold and tech support did admit there was a problem. Again I wanted to test it with the new control panel but the guy bought it and I sent the control panel to him!

But for this Englander not starting at 50 Deg F in the shed with the pellets properly being dispensed at start-up, it must be an igniter issue. I did adjust the igniter to not be even with the hole so the hot air can get in and fire up the pellets. Per ESWs FAQ. Since it does work on the 2nd shot I have a suspicion that the aging igniter is more resistive and not starting soon within the spec and a new one would resolve the problem.

Can anyone confirm this? Thanks
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
loosen the setbolt and scoot the igniter baxk just a slight little bit. remember 'air in/air out" if the igniter is not lighting the fuel readily its usually because there is either not enough air going in (or not enough coming out. remember we should see a gap between the tip of the igniter and teh BACK of the hole of approximately 1/8th inch, if its too close or if there is buildup in the sleeve the air is not going to exit the sleeve with enough volume to heat the pellets to combustion temps.

the second start success may be due to the igniter being preheated as well as the sleeve so the heat coming out the second time will be higher in temp quicker
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
loosen the setbolt and scoot the igniter baxk just a slight little bit. remember 'air in/air out" if the igniter is not lighting the fuel readily its usually because there is either not enough air going in (or not enough coming out. remember we should see a gap between the tip of the igniter and teh BACK of the hole of approximately 1/8th inch, if its too close or if there is buildup in the sleeve the air is not going to exit the sleeve with enough volume to heat the pellets to combustion temps.

the second start success may be due to the igniter being preheated as well as the sleeve so the heat coming out the second time will be higher in temp quicker
Hi Mike
I already did that. I bolded the text in my last post and I bolded Part E of you E codes in my first post.
So I just tried the auto start again with the shed at 70 Deg F and the stove was a tad warm. It started the 1st time!
Now I really do not believe the shed/room should be at 70 Deg F for the Englander stove to start the 1st time?

So what now Mike?

Do you do temperature testing with those stoves in the trailer?
Maybe flood the trailer with freon to a temperature of 20 degrees and see how well they start?
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
Hi Mike
I already did that. I bolded the text in my last post and I bolded Part E of you E codes in my first post.
So I just tried the auto start again with the shed at 70 Deg F and the stove was a tad warm. It started the 1st time!
Now I really do not believe the shed/room should be at 70 Deg F for the Englander stove to start the 1st time?

So what now Mike?

Do you do temperature testing with those stoves in the trailer?
Maybe flood the trailer with freon to a temperature of 20 degrees and see how well they start?
when was this stove built?

as for the excerpt parts being bolded i didnt read down that far , im quite familiar with that excerpt, i wrote it, so i just bypassed it and didnt notice the bolded part
 
D

DexterDay

Guest
Do you do temperature testing with those stoves in the trailer?
Maybe flood the trailer with freon to a temperature of 20 degrees and see how well they start?
At 20° they should still start. A difference of 30°-40° isn't going to matter, when you looking at such high temps to initiate combustion, that little difference should not matter...... IMO.
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
At 20° they should still start. A difference of 30°-40° isn't going to matter, when you looking at such high temps to initiate combustion, that little difference should not matter...... IMO.
ive fired em up in my burn trailer when it was in the teens , no prob. though i did have a converstaion with one of my techs about a customer who has an EP up in alaska and his unit will not fire with the OAK installed when it gets below -20F if he slips it off and fires the stove with room air it lights right up.ambient temps shouldnt matter unless its "stupid"cold.

may need to check teh air inlet between the intek and the sleeve itself (depends on year)
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
when was this stove built?

as for the excerpt parts being bolded i didnt read down that far , im quite familiar with that excerpt, i wrote it, so i just bypassed it and didnt notice the bolded part
Hi Mike
Thanks for getting back to me, I know you are busy. The stove manufacturing date is 03/05 on the Label under the hopper lid. I got it from the original owner that purchased it from Lowes. The igniter can be that old, I just do not know. So what does that mean?

Below is the pic I took of this igniter working in my bench testing.
 

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stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
Hi Mike
Thanks for getting back to me, I know you are busy. The stove manufacturing date is 03/05 on the Label under the hopper lid. I got it from the original owner that purchased it from Lowes. The igniter can be that old, I just do not know. So what does that mean?

Below is the pic I took of this igniter working in my bench testing.
the igniter looks fine in the pic. doesnt that stove have a "shunt " that leads from the intate under the lower auger motor to the side of the igniter sleeve, if so disconnect it from the intake pipe end under the motor and let it pull "house"air. also , if it has that setup, check the "stint" where the air tube hooks to the sleeve, sometimes the stint (which is tapped into the side of the casting with a small hammer) may have been tapped in too far which puts the end of the stint insde too far and too close to the side of the igniter rod this could restrict intake air from the sleeve as well
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
the igniter looks fine in the pic. doesnt that stove have a "shunt " that leads from the intate under the lower auger motor to the side of the igniter sleeve, if so disconnect it from the intake pipe end under the motor and let it pull "house"air. also , if it has that setup, check the "stint" where the air tube hooks to the sleeve, sometimes the stint (which is tapped into the side of the casting with a small hammer) may have been tapped in too far which puts the end of the stint insde too far and too close to the side of the igniter rod this could restrict intake air from the sleeve as well
Hi Mike
Yes, I see exactly what you are talking about! See my pics below. Click on pic to see entire view.
It is hard to see into the igniter hole but I put my finger in and I could feel that there was no protrusion into the hole by the stint. Luckily that is ok. So I disconnected the blue hose at the air intake tube. I will try starting it in the morning again when it is colder and let you know. Thanks :)

I also have pics of the ignitor. Please let me know if the space is big enough or if I should pull the ignitor back more?
 

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D

DexterDay

Guest
looking at pic "2126" it looks like it may be ok or maybe a bit close still. try it with the hose disconnected first.

if it makes ya feel better im burinig my stove at home as its supposed to get into the 40's tonite
Yep. 33° here right now. We have been burnin at night... Gotta stay warm and I am not burning Any LP!!
 

Murphy118

Member
Sep 20, 2010
155
NE Pennsylvania
FWIW, if I don't use a small chip brush to clean out the "hole" from the burn pot in front of the ignitor, my stove will probably not light and "E2" itself. (my woman found this out, and I won't admit that I do it all the time now too)!!

John
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
looking at pic "2126" it looks like it may be ok or maybe a bit close still. try it with the hose disconnected first.

if it makes ya feel better im burinig my stove at home as its supposed to get into the 40's tonite
Hi Mike

Well removing the blue hose did make a difference. After the startup cycle quit on the E2 error there were ashes in the wear plate. However the inside temp and outside temp of my shed was the same at 41 Deg F this morning. See pic

So it looks like the ignitor warmed up a little more and the pellets turned to ashes smoldered and burned away. The stove did not get hot enough to for the thermal sensor to keep the stove going.

So I cleaned the ashes and tried again and it started right up, under 10 mins.
 

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Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
That looks a little cold Don.

What is the air flow past that thing like?
I agree 100% Smokey it maybe a little cooler and/or slower for a 300 watt ignitor to heat up!

One thing I am realizing is that for a pellet stove to work well it must have not only the latest designed parts but they must be working VERY well. Sure the old auger motors worked but they kept quitting once in a while. Sure the ignitor works but mabye not like it used to!

Not having a remote switch to turn it on is not so good. But having to go out there twice in the morning to turn it on! !! No WAY Jose!

For the shed this is just unacceptable. Mike can we make it right?
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
I agree 100% Smokey it maybe a little cooler and/or slower for a 300 watt ignitor to heat up!

One thing I am realizing is that for a pellet stove to work well it must have not only the latest designed parts but they must be working VERY well. Sure the old auger motors worked but they kept quitting once in a while. Sure the ignitor works but mabye not like it used to!

Not having a remote switch to turn it on is not so good. But having to go out there twice in the morning to turn it on! !! No WAY Jose!

For the shed this is just unacceptable. Mike can we make it right?
i tell ya somthing you might try but i have not done it on that old a unit, take the collar and igniter out, drill 2 1/8th inch holes in the collar so air can enter through the back of the igniter. its not the ambient temp causeing the problem, its simply not enough heat getting from point a to point b in the allotted time. if the igniter is getting hot enough to fire the unit the second time, it should be able to fire them the first time. if this doesnt get it then i guess you would want a new igniter

as for the remote switch, nothing i can do with that the board simply isnt designed to accept somthing that would work that way, chip will not accept an "on "command through the stat connections as it doesnt have on/off capability we do not have a chip for a 2 auger stove with on/off built into it only the single auger chips have that and they will not run the 2 auger stoves
 

Don2222

Minister of Fire
Feb 1, 2010
8,628
Salem NH
i tell ya somthing you might try but i have not done it on that old a unit, take the collar and igniter out, drill 2 1/8th inch holes in the collar so air can enter through the back of the igniter. its not the ambient temp causeing the problem, its simply not enough heat getting from point a to point b in the allotted time. if the igniter is getting hot enough to fire the unit the second time, it should be able to fire them the first time. if this doesnt get it then i guess you would want a new igniter

as for the remote switch, nothing i can do with that the board simply isnt designed to accept somthing that would work that way, chip will not accept an "on "command through the stat connections as it doesnt have on/off capability we do not have a chip for a 2 auger stove with on/off built into it only the single auger chips have that and they will not run the 2 auger stoves
Wow, Thanks for all the info Mike. This is great, I am sure we can get this working right. Ok, so with your info here is my plan.
Since I disconnected the blue hose at the OAK tube with some success, this is what I will try.

1. Disconnect the blue hose at the ignitor tube.
This will eliminate the restriction the hose is causing with the ambient air flow.

2. Pull this ignitor out another 1/8th of an inch.
This will supply more air flow at the front of the igniter.

3. Install a brand new igniter.
This will increase warmup time and temperature to the maximum capability of the 300 watt igniter.

4. As a last resort, drill holes like you recommend.
This will increase airflow into the igniter tube to bring hot air into the burn area faster.

So I will do 1 & 2 together and see what happens.
I have an igniter on order and it will arrive next week.

Thanks for your help Mike, It is my pleasure to be able to work with such a knowledgeable guy that really takes pride in making a reliable product!

P.S. Thanks for checking into the remote on/off switching for me. The only other way I can think of is to solder 2 wires to the control board where the on/off panel switch connects. If the 2 wires are in parallel with the panel switch, then normal operation would not be effected. Then the 2 wires can be connected to a remote Momentary push button that will turn the unit on also! I will look at the circuit card to see how feasible it is. If it is too messy I would not bother, but it could be a nice added feature for your stoves, if that was neatly added and a 2 circuit jack(like the banana jacks for speakers) was mounted on the side of the stove. Then anyone could add an external switch to start the stove from another room or building.
 

stoveguy2esw

Minister of Fire
Wow, Thanks for all the info Mike. This is great, I am sure we can get this working right. Ok, so with your info here is my plan.
Since I disconnected the blue hose at the OAK tube with some success, this is what I will try.

1. Disconnect the blue hose at the ignitor tube.
This will eliminate the restriction the hose is causing with the ambient air flow.

2. Pull this ignitor out another 1/8th of an inch.
This will supply more air flow at the front of the igniter.

3. Install a brand new igniter.
This will increase warmup time and temperature to the maximum capability of the 300 watt igniter.

4. As a last resort, drill holes like you recommend.
This will increase airflow into the igniter tube to bring hot air into the burn area faster.

So I will do 1 & 2 together and see what happens.
I have an igniter on order and it will arrive next week.

Thanks for your help Mike, It is my pleasure to be able to work with such a knowledgeable guy that really takes pride in making a reliable product!

P.S. Thanks for checking into the remote on/off switching for me. The only other way I can think of is to solder 2 wires to the control board where the on/off panel switch connects. If the 2 wires are in parallel with the panel switch, then normal operation would not be effected. Then the 2 wires can be connected to a remote Momentary push button that will turn the unit on also! I will look at the circuit card to see how feasible it is. If it is too messy I would not bother, but it could be a nice added feature for your stoves, if that was neatly added and a 2 circuit jack(like the banana jacks for speakers) was mounted on the side of the stove. Then anyone could add an external switch to start the stove from another room or building.
lemme save you some time, soldering to the "on/off" aint gonna happen, they are bubble switches incased in the touchpad, there is a "ribbon" looks like celophane with greenish lines in it coming out from behind the right side of the printed board that lead to a long skinny blue plug at the board. i do not know which pin is on or off and the only way to find out would be to literally destroy a touchpad. even then getting to the pins without making the connector unusable is next to impossible. in my mind, a seperate "momentary"switch like you described would be best accomplished taking power straight off the cord, or having its own cord, rig a remote command switch to it and you may have somthing. but dont try to integrate it directly to the board, its a $216.00 mistake to try.
 
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