Feed Line/Backflow Preventer question

[dogwood]

Now I am confused, Eric, by your last replies wording. Should I be following Watts directions for the PRV to be downstream of the BFP, or place it upstream of the BFP? Or does it just not matter? I'll never figure this stuff out. You know I just reread your posts and you did suggest to put the PRV downstream just as Watts said to do. So that's what I will do. Send me one of those homebrews, willya. I must be getting overtired. Time to hit the hay.

Mike

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Thanks for the link Mike and yah I might be that desperate.Its not getting any warmer here for sure. I bought a Woodgun E 180. Its a certified vessel (A.S.M.E)-also a steam boiler. This one has an oil gun also but I dont plan on using it. This thing is built like a brick Sh*t house. 2,200lbs dry. Its a carbon steel unit. I know they came out with 304 stainless fireboxes later on but this boiler is all there. I have a friend who does non destructive testing. They use the same technology on steel as they do on humans lol. They use a sonar device and gelly-just like when they determine gender in an infant before it is born. The material in the firebox (which is where they fail) only showed a 1/64 under spec. Its 22 years old and probably the most mechanical wood gassifier you can buy. It basicaly runs off a triple aqaustat , a fan and a dc servo.I timed it and when there is a power loss that intake air servo closes like a bear trap-well almost-6 seconds.Thats a true story. The other wood boilers I have installed (updrafters with a secondary burn) have heat actuated mechanical damper and require an over heat loop attached to a mag valve in the event of a power loss. In other words they get warm before closing down. Without it they would blow off and somrtimes do. Sometimes they do a little irish jig if there not anchored to the floor.Oh yah this one has a dhw coil too. Umm I brew beer from grain and there is a brewery in the making. I wont need that coil so it will be used as a supply for my brew pot lol. shhhh! Im really interested in 2 500 gallon tanks though. My barn has limited space and I would like to fit(cut them down a bit) and place them verticle in series on a manifold. Im still looking though. Maybe something will pop up. I can get all the 250's I want but it wouldnt be enough volume.Id end up with 480 tops-not worth it.

Eric; Did you buy that WG off Ebay? It looked like a nice unit, the question was how much plate wear did it have. Glad yours is alright, Randy

 

[Eric G]

Mike im sorry about that-I was kinda kidding with you. If you follow the manufacturer's advice you cant go wrong. I know where I live you need a check valve .Its the first thing I put after tee'n off domestic water. Either way your ok in my opinion. Evidently that backflow preventer will handle your full line pressure no problem. So if they say put it before the regulator then so be it.

 

[Eric G]

Signed I did get the WG off ebay-Not the most recent one that was on there lol-the one before that one. Guy that originaly won it found out how much shipping was and backed out. To ship where he lived must have been pretty pricey considering its weight. When it got deliverd the bobcat's rear wheels were floating 3" off the ground. Just made it through the overhead door too-about a half inch too spare. I got two extra blower motors-circ pump and a brand new dc servo motor with it. Every gasket on it has been replaced. I know what you mean about the plate. Ive read horror stories about it. One person posted a comment that there's had rotted out in five years. I guess you can read into what ever you want these days. I dont wanna open up a can of worms about materials-you know stainless vs carbon and so on. Ive seen plenty of material failures. Ive repaired plenty of em lol. There are reasons for it though. I hold alot of welding certs and repair certified vessels-steam jacketed pipe-reactors-stainless-carbon-chromium-etc. So if anything was to happen well I think I could handle it lol. I hold certs in stick-mig(stt)-gtaw-and subarc oh yah and orbital. I also hold a liscence for it too. Welding and fitting(BTJ). Build tech journey-Thats what I am-a journeymen.Im out of local 51 which was the old 476(steamfitters local). Im here too share my knowledge and also to learn.If I dont know something I'll be the first to admit it(god knows there's plenty of admitting from me lol).

 

[dogwood]

Eric, thanks for clearing that up for me? Must be losing my sense of humor along with the rest of my sanity. This has nothing to do with this post but did you ever hear of a pipe threading machine called the Beaver Model A? Apparently the US Navy used them aboard ship back during WWII according to one source. I was wondering how I was going to cut and thread 140 feet of 1.5 inch pipe when I came across one of these "antiques" in perfect working order on CraigsList for only two hundred bucks. The new Rigid threading machines everybody uses start at over $3,000.00. Way out of my league. I lucked out and got it, and just now hauled this behemoth into the garage. It has ten dies ranging in size up to two inches, and some other larger cutters, not in dies, that I haven't figured out how to use yet. Also a pipe cutter and pipe reamer. Its built like a brick and weighs a ton. Isn't life grand. I can now cut and thread all that pipe at my own pace while doing our installation. Attached are a picture found on the net of a restored Beaver Model A pipe threader, my new ugly one, and some of the dies that came with it. Its sweet lookin' don't you think. Can't wait to give it a test run and a paint job. It has automatic oiling too.

Mike

 

[Eric G]

Mike that machine is BOMB!-are the dies fixed or adjustable--look like there on a cam lever.Umm maybe not adjustable but you can open them too slide pipe through without swinging it correct? If they built that machine today it would be more than 3 grand-lol!. We run Rigid 300's with adjustable dies.Does it have an oiler?

 

[dogwood]

Yes, the dies do open and close. I am not sure how this function works yet. The oiling is automatic, which is real nice . Ours at work doesnt even do that for its' $3500 price tag. The previous owner said to use hydraulic fluid to oil the cutting process. Does yours at work use hydraulic fluid or something else. I'm not likely to come up with an owners manual to sort those details out. Our boilerman at work said his uncle used to have the same model and encouraged me getting it. Glad you like it too. I'll try and take and post a picture tomorrow of the extra cutter parts I don't recognize. May you'd recognize what they are for. The previous owner didn't know either?

Mike

 

[Eric G]

Oh it does have an oiler--ooops. Ok rule of thumb.When you cut the threads-3 and 1/2 turns until it fetches up. More than that and a possible leak. Cut the thread off and try again. Not familiar with the dies but usualy about one thread past the end die is good on a rigid. fetches before 3 and 1/2 simply go deeper.When I say 3 and 1/2 turns -well I mean spin a fitting onto the cut thread-three and a half turns and it should get tight. 140' what the hell are you pipen? A submarine? How are you gonna manifold that tank off? One supply and one return for the boiler? Your pushing through the top correct? anyhow are you tee'n it off-supply and return? One line into two or three? Thats a big tank.

 

[Eric G]

Mike there might ba an attachment for threading bigger bore pipe-over 2 inches. Ive seen threaded pipe up too 8"-You dont wanna turn those wrenches-AT ALL lol! Anyhow the bigger attachment gets driven by the chuck but hangs off to the side.The ways get in the way-lol-there could be a spelling error there. Yah show me the other attachments i might be able to decipher. Yah thats a score. You have forward and reverse too correct?

 

[Eric G]

The reason the die opens is when your done threading you simply open it.Without that you would have too reverse the machine to back it out.

 

[dogwood]

Eric, I've got forty feet to get to my W/A hx and the back again and ten feet up to the attic where the pipe runs and ten feet back down. This eats up a big hunk of the 140 feet right there. I'm putting in one supply and one return for the boiler and the same for the 1000 gallon storage tank too. The tank does have a lot of fittings on top so I might use two of the larger ones for plumbing the tank's supply to cut down on disturbing the tanks stratification when the boiler is sending new hot water to it. Return is through the bottom 1.5 inch fitting. The tank even came with a diptube and a pressure gauge already on it and a baffle inside. You ought to come down and get yourself one. Thanks for the valuable instuctions on how to properly thread pipe.I really appreciate this kind of detailed information that you only get through experience. That kind of know-how is hard to come by and I will be saving it, referring to it, and utilizing it when I cut and thread. It's good not to have to guess at those things.

I do have forward and reverse and the owner said it will thread in the opposite direction as well, he said it could thread "left-handed". The boiler man at work said you do have to reverse the direction to get the pipe out from the die with this machine, but that it does clean the threads doing that.

Mike

 

[Eric G]

Oh Mike is that one of them new fangled electric log dowdrafting insert boilers to the left of the threader. I heard those things are bears.Hell you'll heat that thousand gallon storage up in no time-dont need even need an armload-the logs is fixed- burn forever-lmao.

 

[dogwood]

That picture is from the previous owners garage. The only boiler I have is an unassembled Solo Innova.

Mike

 

[Eric G]

Just joking around--That threader is forever though and thats a true story. Mike does that guy have 500's? maybe he could hook me up two.

 

[dogwood]

If you look up the older post Propane Tanks in Virginia or somesuch the owners name and number are in there. You could call him and find out. I just don't remember as I was only interested in the 1000's at the time.

Mike

 

[Eric G]

Thanks Mike-will do-im losing altitude-Pipe on!

 

[Gooserider]

In answer to the original question - there are a bunch of functions that one wants to have when connecting the water supply to the boiler....

First off, as suggested earlier, you only need one fill connection - if tying into an existing fossil boiler setup that has a fill setup, you don't need to duplicate it...

Secondly, several of the valve companies make combination valves of various sorts that do more than one of the required functions - details of just what functions are combined vary...

However from a functional block standpoint -

1. The backflow preventer - normally this is two one-way valves in sequence for redundancy - it is REQUIRED BY LAW in most locations, and a good idea everywhere. It can (and usually does have isolation valves on it, but must NOT be able to be bypassed... It's function is to prevent any possible flow of water (which might have antifreeze or any number of boiler additive chemicals in it) from the boiler system back into the municipal water supply... This valve goes between the water supply line and everything else.

2. The pressure reduction fill valve - this is a regulator valve that reduces municipal pressure to the desired system fill pressure. Adjustable to set pressure.

3. The pressure reduction valve bypass line - optional - designed to allow the full municipal pressure and volume to flow into the system, useful for filling and purging, must be turned off at all other times.

4. The autofill control valve - a shutoff valve between the system and the pressure reduction valve, it's position is the subject of considerable debate... If kept closed, the system will not automatically refill itself, and could potentially lose enough water to cause boiler problems, pump failures and so forth... If left open, the pressure reduction valve will automatically add water any time the system pressure drops below it's preset value, which will prevent boiler issues, but could potentially cause a flood or just hidden damage in the event of a system leak, plus introducing oxygenated water into the system with it's increased potential corrosion issues.... Pick your risk package...

Gooserider

 

[dogwood]

Thanks Gooserider. I will be having only one fill connection. Don't have another boiler, instead have a forced hot air furnace. I will put in the valved bypass line you mentioned around the pressure regulator valve for my initial fill and purge. Thanks for suggesting this. I hadn't thought of it. Good points on the plusses and minuses of the autofill control valve (just a simple ball valve?), which I will install, being either open or closed. I'm thinking maybe a flood in the boiler room off the the garage area would not be as bad as the alternative possibility of damage to the boiler or other parts of the system. Of course a thousand or more gallons of water leaking out and the well pump running continuously in a vain attemt to refill is an unsavory prospect to say the least. Maybe there's some way to rig an alarm if there is flow into the system for more than a short period. Any ideas on how that might be accomplished?

Mike

 

[Gooserider]

Remember, the flood could be ANYWHERE you have hot water lines running - i.e. if you broke a line going to your infloor in the house...

We had a recent thread over in the DIY section where there was talk about various flow monitoring devices, but I don't have anything specific to suggest for the auto-fill valve... My own personal choice would probably be to put a low-water shutdown sensor on the boiler, and leave the autofill turned off, but that is just me...

Gooserider

 

[dogwood]

Thats a good point about it leaking anywhere. My pipe and return to and the plenum hx and DHW hx go rigt over our bedroom and bathroom. Wouldn't a leak right there be a mess. Think I'll just leave it in the off position and periodically open it up for any system refilling needed. Good advice Gooserider. Thanks again.

Mike

 

[dogwood]

Gooserider. thought you might be interested I found the Watts series 1156F Feed Water Pressure Regulator with "fast fill and purge lever" that Eric G. drew my attention to, has a built in pressure reduction bypass. You lift the handle on the top and the house pressure can flow through the system for purging your system of air. Various 1156F models are available from Pex Supply for about $35.00 for bronze models, less for the iron models. Installation instructions and diagram can be found at: http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249544554380/Watts-BronzePressureReg-Installation.pdf, and spec sheet: http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249544554380/Watts-BronzePressureReg-Specifications.pdf. (To confuse you, the installation instructions mislabel the water pressure regulator as a pressure relief valve in their accompanying diagram. The PRV is the one on the right next to the backflow preventer and shut off valve).

Mike

 

[dogwood]

Eric, I figured out what all the extra parts were for the pipe threader. They are a set of extra cutters for each sized die, most in their original boxes. Can you beat that.

Mike

 

[Gooserider]

Gooserider. thought you might be interested I found the Watts series 1156F Feed Water Pressure Regulator with "fast fill and purge lever" that Eric G. drew my attention to, has a built in pressure reduction bypass. You lift the handle on the top and the house pressure can flow through the system for purging your system of air. Various 1156F models are available from Pex Supply for about $35.00 for bronze models, less for the iron models. Installation instructions and diagram can be found at: http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249544554380/Watts-BronzePressureReg-Installation.pdf, and spec sheet: http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249544554380/Watts-BronzePressureReg-Specifications.pdf. (To confuse you, the installation instructions mislabel the water pressure regulator as a pressure relief valve in their accompanying diagram. The PRV is the one on the right next to the backflow preventer and shut off valve).

Mike

Good link, it is an example of what I said about various valves that combine functions - this isn't a bad idea, as it is easier to plumb, and often cheaper, but it seems to help understand what is going on if you start by breaking down the unit into it's component parts... Sort of like the difference between a discrete component stereo and an "all in one" unit...

Gooserider

 

[dogwood]

Good analogy. (As we post I'm sitting next to my now fully functioning 1970's discrete component audio equipment with a newly repaired preamp). I best go order that part.

Mike