finding ancient drain outlet?

[pybyr]

I help look after a couple of near-200-year-old community buildings.

One has a sump drain pipe of cast iron or clay exiting out the stone basement wall near the floor, and heading in a direction that (by exit direction of the pipe and the general lay of the land) probably goes about 60 yards under the dirt road in front of the building, and then comes out (or used to come out) the bank into marshy weeds on the other side of the road.

The pipe no longer drains worth a darn. I am guessing, from other similar situations that I have seen, that one or a combination of the following have happened: (a) weeds & their root mass/ detritus have grown in front of and then over the opening; or (b) gradual slumping of the road bank has tumbled down in front of the pipe's outlet.

In either case, digging up the outlet is probably in order, but as far as I can tell, there is no way to "zero in" on the place where it exits- either horizontally or vertically- long the length of bank across the road, and my back is not up to simply drying to dig all over to pin the tail on the pipe.

Anyone got any tricks up their sleeve as to how to preliminarily identify the basic location of the outlet before we start trying to dig?

Thanks

Trevor

 

[HopWallop]

Not sure if it will work in your case, but during our home inspection they sent a colored die down our drain to see where it would come out in the yard during the septic test.

 

[seige101]

A plumber that specialized in camera inspections and underground utility marking would probably be just the thing. They shove a camera down there that also has a radio beacon on it. They walk around the surface with the detector and can mark where the pipe goes. Or something like dig safe.

 

[pybyr]

Not sure if it will work in your case, but during our home inspection they sent a colored die down our drain to see where it would come out in the yard during the septic test.

Thanks for the suggestion-- but the weeds are so thick on the opposite side that I don't know that we'd be able to see dye.

I wonder if a drain-clearing snake would work to try to punch through so that water would flow more readily- and then that might help us locate it?

 

[Gooserider]

Any possibility of tracking it with a metal detector? If clay, possibly sending a large drain snake down the pipe and tracking that? Of course if you can punch through with the snake, then you just need to look for the snake head...


Gooserider

 

[HopWallop]

pybyr,

You could always wait until winter. Apparently the die shows up real well against the snow. Two other good ideas. If it is clay, send a steel snake down there as a tracer then break out the metal detector. That camera technology is very cool. You will be able to see exactly what the problem is and how far out it is.

 

[kabbott]

Any possibility of tracking it with a metal detector? If clay, possibly sending a large drain snake down the pipe and tracking that? Of course if you can punch through with the snake, then you just need to look for the snake head...


Gooserider

AS a first step I would send a snake down and see how far you get. You may find the pipe is broken down somewhere short of where
It would/could daylight(esp if clay), In which case finding the end will not help much.

If you can get a snake down it then use a metal detector. We use a metal detector that is just a strait pole with no head on the bottom like your
average "normal" detector. Not sure what it's called but it will pick up fairly deep object's 5,6 or more feet deep depending on the size.

I can tell you from experience that even the utility markers get it wrong as often as not. Hand digging for something that may/may not be there sucks. I
use bigger "shovel" for those, much more fun sitting in a 70,000 pound excavator lookin for those.

Happy hunting

 

[fraxinus]

I had the same issue with my cellar drain this summer. Look for a company that specializes in drain cleaning/septic work. The video camera these companies employ is very useful, but they also have extra high pressure jetting machines with special root cutting nozzles.

 

[SolarAndWood]

You could use a transit to give you a starting point for the vertical.

 

[John_M]

About four years ago we had to unclog a 200' long, 3" horizontal drain line that had stopped draining into a pond. We inserted a 50', 3/4" water hose that went in pretty easy. We then added another length of hose and could feel some blockage. The hose connections were tightened with pliers. Turned on the water and ran it for about 1/2 hour. Lots of backflow made a mess of where the hose was inserted but the hose could be inserted a little further every couple of minutes. We continued this for another length of hose and eventually broke up the blockage. When inserting the hose we were certain to always turn in a clockwise direction so as not to unscrew any connections. The water in the line acted as a lubricant and made the hose easier to push into the line. As I recall, the entire process took about 3-4 hours.

Good luck with whatever method you use.

John_M

 

[LLigetfa]

Sounds like a job for a Roto-Rooter. As for the weeds, cut them down with a weed whacker.

To locate the end, shove a shotgun loaded with blanks in the end of the pipe and fire away while someone stands on the bank listening for it.

 

[Hogwildz]

Good luck, not a fun project.
Do you know for sure that it does daylight out the hill? Back then, some folks just dug a pit and filled it with stone, with the pipe ending in the stone.

 

[pybyr]

Good luck, not a fun project.
Do you know for sure that it does daylight out the hill? Back then, some folks just dug a pit and filled it with stone, with the pipe ending in the stone.

A local person who had a hand in the place 20 years ago, and whose memory is usually not a lot more tattered than mine, seems to think he remembers seeing a place where it daylighted out the other end- but he cannot remember where. I don't think the old timers in this location would have done the stone-lined pit approach, as the seasonal high groundwater at this location, during spring melt, is about the same as the surface of the ground (really); the old timers knew more than we do at practical use of gravity....

 

[pybyr]

maybe pressurize it with air like with a leafblower or compressor + sealing donut & watch 4 bubbles. dry ice smoke might help the cause

Pook (HeySeuss) you are a remarkable ongoing mix of way out and practical. Have you got an unmarried sister, around or under 50, with no kids or grown kids, who you could ship to VT?

 

[Highbeam]

Or just put a new one in. The old clay one might be pooey by now. You kinda need this to work.

 

[semipro]

A plumber that specialized in camera inspections and underground utility marking would probably be just the thing. They shove a camera down there that also has a radio beacon on it. They walk around the surface with the detector and can mark where the pipe goes. Or something like dig safe.

X2. They use these to find septic tanks too.

 

[pybyr]

Or just put a new one in. The old clay one might be pooey by now. You kinda need this to work.

Thanks- but the road is unusually wide there (it's an intersection of 4 back roads), and it'd be a massive undertaking that the Town probably would not be keen on. I hope like heck to be able to make the existing pipe flow again with minimal headache/ cost (ha ha, famous last naive hope...). The building is owned by a nonprofit that's, well, sorta extra literal (through no particular design or aspiration) in that status

 

[pybyr]

A plumber that specialized in camera inspections and underground utility marking would probably be just the thing. They shove a camera down there that also has a radio beacon on it. They walk around the surface with the detector and can mark where the pipe goes. Or something like dig safe.

X2. They use these to find septic tanks too.

Thanks-- but given the limited budget, I'd have to find someone willing to do it at an unusually low rate. Good idea to have if other more rudimentary options fail.

 

[Gooserider]

Even if the old line isn't useable as is, it might (if big enough) be useful as a liner / guide to slide a liner of some sort of replacement pipe (Poly tube, PEX, or ???) down it as a no-digging needed replacement.

One bad thought though... Is there any possibility that the road has been widened over time and covered over the end of the drain pipe in the process?

Gooserider

 

[pybyr]

Even if the old line isn't useable as is, it might (if big enough) be useful as a liner / guide to slide a liner of some sort of replacement pipe (Poly tube, PEX, or ???) down it as a no-digging needed replacement.

One bad thought though... Is there any possibility that the road has been widened over time and covered over the end of the drain pipe in the process?

Gooserider

I'm told that the drain did, in fact, drain in not-too-distant memory, so I am hoping that it has not been buried entirely. Roads around here do tend to gradually "slump" and widen some just by the action of freezing/ thawing/ gravity/ depositing of new sand & gravel on top during grading.

I'm increasingly thinking that I may take a 100 ft spool of 1/2 black poly, with a garden hose connector on one end, and try to push it through, with the water on, in hopes of seeing if I can get it to the other side, or at least get something to flow.

I also ordered a jar of 100 tablets of flourescent dye as is used to find septic leaks.

 

[raven]

..........a good dowser could put ya right on it

 

[peakbagger]

If you want to try the doswer route, there used to be covention every year in Lyndonville, I expect that there are several folks in the area who would love to come practice on your drain.

The long length of PVC usually works as long as the line is not crushed but be prepared for a mess from all the crap that is going to flow back up the pipe. Frequently a rusty bacteria forms in a line like that and it leaves stains. On the industrial side, they use a special head on the end of the ppe that jets most of the water forward, but alos has some jets that spray back down the pipe. This help pull the pipe up to the clog, as the nozzle get close to the clog it gets partially blocked whihc force more out the back ports which pushes the head farther into the clog. I expect with soem experimenting, you may be able to take some brass pipe fittings and modify them.

 

[Highbeam]

Is this basement drain something that works by gravity only or do you pump through it with a sump pump? It doesn't take much junk to block a gravity flow pipe and it may be easy to blast it out as you describe.