Garnzilla - The epic installation battle begins!

[rvtgr8]

I am now entering into the actual installation phase of the Garnzilla! I am including my first pics of just pipes on the floor and trying to give others a sense where everything lies in juxtaposition. The old Burnham boiler is directly behind this manifold. I have two pumps. The larger Grundfos is for the HX in the house and the smaller will drive the hot tub / garage radiator. My question is simple. Does anybody see any fatal flaws here? Of course, I will be relocating the indoor vacuum cleaner that is in the way. Robert

 

[stee6043]

Ahhhh fond memories of my entire Fall 2008. Black pipe is great.

Is that a piece of galvanized pipe on your smaller pump? Typically mixing galvanized and black pipe is a no-no.

I'd also ditch the copper on your larger pump. Personally, if it were me I'd go all black pipe. No messing around except for brass shut-off's and other misc stuff. Which brings me to my last suggestion - you should put full-port ball valves before and after both pumps. This makes swapping them out later a much easier and dryer affair...

 

[seabee570]

with that much water in the boiler,If something happens out in the system,I would put ball valves as close to the boiler as possible.this would allow you to isolate boielr from entire system in an emergency.1 valve on supply,and 1 on return.

 

[rvtgr8]

Good tips and well noted. I did have that piece of galvanized pipe on the HT loop only because I don't have the black pipe there. I intend to use dielectric fittings off the manifold. I then want to put in my ball valves, then pumps, then valves before shooting through the wall. Hope that is correct.

Robert

 

[Jim K in PA]

Robert - all good suggestions above. DEFINATELY install isolation valves before & after the pumps, and on the S/R piping.

If you go with all black pipe, you can skip the dielectric fittings.

I also see another tee between the HX and HT pumps. If that is for your future GH loop, I would use some larger nipples and space those branches farther apart. It will make installing the third pump less problematic later. You could do it with what you have and move the third pump up higher to avoid interference with the other pumps, but I prefer to keep things consistent. I would also install a ball valve on that tee before you cap it.

At the ends of the manifolds you may also want to install boiler drains.

And if you think you want to add some temperature sensors, or aquastats for future control options, put in some thermowells on the S & R legs, and the branches. It's a lot easier to do now than later.

 

[rvtgr8]

This is what I had in mind for the leg to the heat exchanger. Will this suffice?

 

[seabee570]

LOOKS GOOD......how far away is the heat excanger?If it is a distance away,I would put the return valve at the heat exchanger.I also think that even though you have a shor distance of pipe from boiler to pumps and you are gonna put valves,I would still put isolation valves at the boiler...there is alot of water in that thing.Most commercial boilers require this...good luck

 

[Rick Stanley]

Robert,

Just a couple of things I've spent some head scratching time on.........................They are right that you want ball valves near the Garn, on both your main supply and

return lines so you could shut off both manifolds. To satisfy Garn's paranoia about corrosion (and maybe their warranty), make sure there's 6 feet of black pipe (my manual says 4-6 ft) between the Garn and those ball valves. I'm just putting mine right before the manifolds branch out.

You still want ball valves or isolation valves on either side of the pumps so you can replace a pump or work on one zone without interfering with the other zones.

Also, it looks like in your pictures, that if you turn the pumps and flanges 90* one way or the other, you'll have more room to work between pumps when you add one, or whatever.

It might be good to lower your pumps by using close nipples between the pump and the manifold as cavitation is of concern also.

I think you're in business

Rick

 

[pybyr]

You can get pump flanges that have their own built-in ball valves, which will be more compact, faster to install, and probably cheaper overall than separate flanges and ball valves. I used Taco valved flanges, and was disappointed with leakage at the threads; people report better luck with the Webstone valved pump flanges.

 

[foxt]

Definitely install T's with 1/2" fitting on the S/R lines coming from the GARN so that you can install thermowells for sensors. You're going to want to know the water temps in/out at the rear of the tank, and even if you don't use them and just cap them for now, saves alot of rework later. And I second or third the advice about the isolation valves, especially the integrated flange valves (if you haven't already got the right size all valves on hand), they save time and space.

Something else to think about at this point, if you haven't already, is how are you going to insulate the install? At the moment I am chasing standby losses with my GARN, and I've become a bit anal about it because I hate to think I'm just wasting btu's. I can't recall from your other thread, but if everything - GARN, pipes, fittings, etc - all need to be individually insulated, you'll want to plan your piping so that you can take care of that easily later. For instance, if you need to insulate the back wall of the GARN, will you be doing so to incorporate the pipes there into the insulated space, or are you going to insulate right up against the back wall? If the latter, you might want more room between the pipes and the tank. Another thing, I can't see it in these pics but I assume you have the suggested blueboard under the unit - you will want to think about how to extend that or integrate it into whatever you do for the rest of your insulation ...

Tom

 

[rvtgr8]

Okay, these answers and comments will probably reveal how little that I really know. Ignorance being bliss, I intend to place my HX about a foot above the pump. Seabee, do you think that is too close? I like your idea as it will likely save me some of my limited cash.

Rick, what type of valve are you using on the main supply and return? I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that you are using a brass or bronze valve? Yes I will be using the shorter nipples to keep the pumps low and prevent cavitation.

Pybyr, can you recommend a supplier for the Webstones so I can price them?

Foxt, I am thinking the half inch flange is superior due to the depth of thread? Could you expand on the notion of thermowells for sensors? In regards to insulation, each of these pipes will be under a raised floor so I can walk over them without tripping. I am a renowned klutz. I will be insulating the black steel withing these cavities. I too do not want those pesky btu's scurrying off. The insulation boardd is purchased and will be placed today or tomorrow. Good eye.

 

[pybyr]

Pybyr, can you recommend a supplier for the Webstones so I can price them?

(broken link removed)

also, you could call Patriot-Supply.com and see what they have; I cannot find any on their web site right now, but they must have something similar

 

[pybyr]

Here's another source/ brand for isolation flanges:

(broken link removed)

 

[Rick Stanley]

Robert,

I got my 1-1/4" Webstone Uni-flanges (brass flange with ball valve) and 1-1/4 inch Watts Regulator Full Port brass ball valves from www.ccallis.com The two inch ball valves are quite pricey so I'm getting them from an ebay store called Gas Valves Plus (tip from leaddog I think). He doesn't list them on his store but I emailed him and he has them for like 13 bucks apiece plus shipping. Great prices!! Check him out.

Rick

 

[oldmilwaukee]

Quick question from a complete ignoramous (me). What are the implications of not using dielectric fittings where copper (or brass) meets black pipe? I didn't use any - did I mess up? Can the fix wait 'til next season?

 

[Donl]

OK Robert, fess up and let us know what you are using to make those terrific drawings? Don't try to tell us you are using a child's Etch-A-Sketch!

Don

 

[seabee570]

if the heat exchanger is that close then it is ok to put it anywhere on the return.if the heat exchanger was farther away,you would want to isolate it at the heat exchanger...looks good keep on truckin...

 

[rvtgr8]

The pictures that I make are made with the drawing module in Appleworks 6. As a public school teacher, I had to use this Mac program every day to do presentations. Thanks for the kind words but it is nothing very special. Just a mid level CAD program.

 

[pybyr]

Quick question from a complete ignoramous (me). What are the implications of not using dielectric fittings where copper (or brass) meets black pipe? I didn't use any - did I mess up? Can the fix wait 'til next season?

I have been told by people who I consider to be reliable pros, and relative perfectionists, that dielectric fittings where iron meets copper or brass are only needed in a system where the water can take on/ retain oxygen- like a domestic water system, an OWB, or a Garn.

For a gasifier, with a sealed hydronic system, they're apparently not needed (I sure hope so, since I omitted them deliberately based on the above-mentioned advice).

 

[foxt]

Foxt, I am thinking the half inch flange is superior due to the depth of thread? Could you expand on the notion of thermowells for sensors?

Thermowells, or bulb wells, allow you to immerse the sensor bulb (thermistor, etc) into a pipe or tank vs. attaching the sensor to the outside. Typically they are 1/2" or 3/4" threaded or sweat. They're used on aquastats, dial gauges, etc. They have different length shafts to allow you to more accurately place the end where you want it. For instance, if you're using a sensor with a remote bulb, you'd want the tip of the well well placed in the center of your black iron pipe so you can get the bulb in there to measure the S/R temps. Same concept with the water temp dial gauge that came with your GARN, if I recall correctly that had a fairly long shaft to get the very end (presumably where the temps are read) well into the tank. I've got several different models throughout the system, one of them sits in the second tap near the air collar next to the temp gauge.

Here's a link for more info ...

johnson controls bulb wells

There are many many options for sensors and controls with remote bulbs, here's two that seem to be pretty popular ...

A419

(broken link removed to http://www.azeltec.com/catalog.0.html.0.html#DIGIT-STAT)

Tom

 

[rvtgr8]

Okay, I am in need of some feedback. Does this have any obvious fatal flaws? Fire away!

 

[stee6043]

More dope on those black pipe joints! You may be fine, I am no plumber. I ran the dope-rope-dope method on my black piping and I did not have one single leak. My joints show a lot of compound pushing out. Might be overkill, but again, not one leak...


See below my less-than-beautiful, but leak free, plumbing - mid project...

 

[foxt]

One thing I noticed right off the bat, I don't see any wye strainers on the "in" port on either side of the hx. You may have them installed out of sight of the camera. If not, you will want to consider installing them. My hx specified the installation of I think it was 20 mesh strainers on both "in " ports to filter out the larger particles that could clog the passages. In addition to that, given that the GARN is an open system, at least on the GARN side you might want to consider providing a setup for flushing the hx in case you experience scale/corrosion/etc in the hx resulting in reduced flow/performance. Alternatively you could just plumb it with unions and ball valves on all 4 ports so that you can isolate the thing and remove/service/replace it, just in case.

Tom

 

[jebatty]

I didn't see valves on both sides of your circs to allow removal/service without draining system. Same thing with the HX. You want to be able to remove it for periodic cleaning, especially after first period of operation when it may have picked up some clogs moving through the system. Ditto on ♠the strainer or other water filter. The solder joints look really good, much better looking than mine.

Is that a central vac in the back corner? Whatever it is, glad that is is "level."

 

[rvtgr8]

Thanks for the great feedback. I do have a couple of unions that are not easily seen in the picture. I wont be as dry as some if I replace or service the HX as most, but it shouldn't be too bad. The upper valve to isolate the hot tub circulator is not in yet. Good eye! The wye strainer was a total slip on my part. My documentation did talk about them, but I promptly forgot them. Again, you guys are great and I will be getting two today.

Robert