Gasification Planning Assistance

[Hosted]

I know some of this information is pretty basic, but I wanted to be able to get all of my questions answered without spending 20 hours with the search. I was all ready to start ordering materials to install an OWB at my house until I found this site. Now after reading thousands of threads have decided to try and figure out if a gasification system if the right way to go for me. I have some neighbors so I was going to have to trench the OWB about 150ft away from my house. My neighbors who I get along with great said they have no problem with the OWB in the back, while if the gasifier would only smoke for a short period of time they said they would have no trouble with it in a shed right beside my house in a shed. So I think I'll be able to swing the gasifier since I won't need to but as much PEX. I live on a slab with no room indoors. I have a 2500 sq ft house that is 12 years old so it isn't to bad on efficency. I currently have lp forced air furnace with heat pump. Anyways I'm trying to decide on how many BTU gasifier and possible storage would work best for me. I already have one old 500 gal propane tank sitting around I could use for storage and could easily get more if storage is even the right way to go for me. I have read some posts on here where guys will get up in the middle of the night to make a fire, and while I am usually gone for approximately 12 hours during the day I need something that will let me not have to worry about during the day. I am also trying to get an idea of the other items I would need to do an install to get my budget around. My uncle is a plumber and has installed about 50 OWB within the past couple years so I would think everything would be pretty easy for him to do. Sorry for the long post of basic questions, I really appreciate it though.


So I guess my questions I would like answered are:

How many BTU gasifier would be best?
How much storage?
Idea on price for installation components?
Any other info that may be needed.

 

[WoodNotOil]

So I guess my questions I would like answered are:

How many BTU gasifier would be best?

If I had to guess I would say 130k to 140k. Once you narrow down brands they can help you size it.

How much storage?

At least 1000 gallons if you want to not tend it for 12 hours at a time on really cold days.

Idea on price for installation components?

Depends on what you are starting with. You will need a plenum hx to hook into your forced air, so add that to the list.

Any other info that may be needed.

Make sure you insulate the boiler room portion of the shed. Plan for DHW. In your case with pressurized storage it would probably take the form of an indirect tank or your existing tank with a plate hx or a side arm. I am sure others will have suggestions as well. Good luck.

 

[stee6043]

In my case if you were to basically double the cost of the boiler you would get a pretty good estimate of "total cost". Of course this includes no installation labor. I did everything myself (except coring a hole in my foundation for the flue)....

 

[steam man]

I'll give this one a kick start. First and foremost-do an accurate heat loss on your house. General consensus is not to oversize a boiler unless you have heat storage. Oversizing is more suited to utilizing storage. Next the storage would be sized based on how long you want to store heat and spread it out over at least your 12 hour away time. Tank size would be based on useable heat available. Mainly two factors would be the temperature required for your heat emitters, whether radiant (the best-allows for lower temp loads thus more storage for the same size tank), baseboard or even hot air, and how efficient your stratification is in your storage. IMO, I would size the storage to hold at least enough btu's for your non-burn time in the coldest expected weather. Oversizing storage may not allow you to get high enough useable temps with a smaller boiler. Conversely, a larger boiler should be able to get a bigger storage tank up to temp easier. I also think the boiler (with storage) should be sized to provide the heat load of the house while charging the storage.

I'll let the experts take over from here.

Mike

 

[jebatty]

Shortcuts always look like the easy way to go, but if you assume $7,000+ for the boiler, and based on my experience two years ago another $5-8000 for installation parts (self-install), depending on what you have, I would do quite a bit of research to make sure my $12-15,000 investment was well spent.

On the other hand, if you've already made the decision to go the OWB route, I have a hard time finding a significant downside to instead installing a gasification boiler. I think install parts costs would be about the same for both, plus a storage tank if you go that route with a gasifier. Since I had an OWB and then replaced it with the Tarm, in my experience I can't really find any good reason to buy an OWB over a gasification boiler.

 

[Hosted]

From what I have been reading 140k like WoodNotOil said is probably about right, although I really should do a heat loss on my house like steam man said. I have been eyeballing the EKO 40 and the Atmos DC 40 GS. If you look at the link below you can see the difference in the fireboxes. Although you have to look at the drawn sketch of the Atmos to see it because it has quite a bit more cermamic the the S model. The atmos does make me wonder a little more because it isn't as popular in the US.

(broken link removed)

 

[Eric Johnson]

I've never seen an Atmos, but I understand they're good boilers. Their lack of presence on the U.S. market is not a symptom of their relative quality, I don't think. Rather, the mfg. doesn't have the importation and distribution network that some of their competitors, like Tarm and EKO, enjoy.

 

[Hydronics]

Hosted,
I've seen the Atmos (at CTGreen Heat actually) it is a quality built unit & less expensive than an EKO. The fit and finish is actually better than the EKO. The Atmos is best used with storage though because it doesn't have the adjustability with controls like the EKO. I understand that Atmos has been in business since the 60's. They also have induced draft, not forced. 40 KW (140K BTU) is max. size for the Atmos though.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I don't know much about Atmos, but it has the negative draft (pulls air through burn chamber instead of pushing) which means less smoke when loading. That is one of the features of the Tarm Innova that people really appreciate. The Innova also has a door for lighting and a lighting process that takes care of itself. Those are some neat features, but I am sure they come with a cost.

 

[Eric Johnson]

The features bear close scrutiny. Negative draft is said to be better, in part because you don't get a face full of smoke if you try to load the boiler mid-burn. But I've also heard that the blower is more susceptible to failure, as it operates in a harsher environment.

The two things that I really like about the EKO are the turbulator/hx cleaner assembly, and the variable blower speed control. The cleaner assembly allows you to keep the heat exchanger tubes relatively clean without having to take the back of the boiler apart and brush them out periodically. It's much cleaner and more convenient. The variable blower speed control (on the new RK 2001U controller) allows you to adjust the blower intensity (and thus the combustion) from 50 to 100% in 10% increments. I've found this to be an excellent way to tune the boiler's performance on the fly for a cleaner burn and greater efficiency. About the only thing I don't like about the EKO design is that you have to remove 12 screws and remove the blower plate to adjust the primary air settings. It would be very easy to make this adjustable from the front of the boiler with a knob or a handle. Some people have made this modification, and I intend to do it soon. A second temp probe at the return would also be nice. Again, a simple thing to add.

Bottom line, I don't think I would buy a gasifier without the turb/hx cleaner function if I had a choice.

 

[Hydronics]

Valid point Eric, the Atmos doesn't have a turbulator/hx cleaner. For this reason alone I'd steer toward the EKO.

 

[heaterman]

I know some of this information is pretty basic, but I wanted to be able to get all of my questions answered without spending 20 hours with the search. I was all ready to start ordering materials to install an OWB at my house until I found this site. Now after reading thousands of threads have decided to try and figure out if a gasification system if the right way to go for me. I have some neighbors so I was going to have to trench the OWB about 150ft away from my house. My neighbors who I get along with great said they have no problem with the OWB in the back, while if the gasifier would only smoke for a short period of time they said they would have no trouble with it in a shed right beside my house in a shed. So I think I'll be able to swing the gasifier since I won't need to but as much PEX. I live on a slab with no room indoors. I have a 2500 sq ft house that is 12 years old so it isn't to bad on efficency. I currently have lp forced air furnace with heat pump. Anyways I'm trying to decide on how many BTU gasifier and possible storage would work best for me. I already have one old 500 gal propane tank sitting around I could use for storage and could easily get more if storage is even the right way to go for me. I have read some posts on here where guys will get up in the middle of the night to make a fire, and while I am usually gone for approximately 12 hours during the day I need something that will let me not have to worry about during the day. I am also trying to get an idea of the other items I would need to do an install to get my budget around. My uncle is a plumber and has installed about 50 OWB within the past couple years so I would think everything would be pretty easy for him to do. Sorry for the long post of basic questions, I really appreciate it though.


So I guess my questions I would like answered are:

How many BTU gasifier would be best?
How much storage?
Idea on price for installation components?
Any other info that may be needed.

There's no substitute for a good heat loss calculation. Just do it. There are some available on line that while very basic, can also give you a pretty decent picture of what you need for heat. The program I use for all of our jobs is HVAC-CALC and I think you can purchase a one time use for about $40. It's an excellent program and simple to use. Basically it's just like building your house one wall, door, window and floor at a time. Select a component and fill in the size and the program does an actual manual J calc for you. It also allows you to input different design temps or use the ones in the data base. As a rough rule of thumb for a 12 year old house, I'd be surprised if you btu load at design temp was over 30/ sq ft.
A heat loss not only tells you what size boiler you need but also what size tubing, circulators and GPM are required to heat your house. those three items go hand in hand and they are all dependent on how much heat you need.

Just do the gasifier thing and be done with it. OWB's are so yesterday
Seriously, the advantages of cutting, hauling, splitting, stacking, storing and loading about 40% less wood are hard to ignore. Not to mention the reduced chance of a flare up with the neighbors. I've noticed that the "smoke" coming from an Econoburn I installed has almost no odor. That's because it's not smoke, it's condensation, much the same type of exhaust as a high efficiency furnace.

Here's another rough rule of thumb. For every 10,000 btu's of heating load you have, install 100 gallons of storage for twice a day firing during all but very severe winter conditions. 9 times out of ten that ratio will work all other things being equal.

 

[Hosted]

Well, I found a a heat loss calculator online that I was able to get a rough estimate on. Here is what it spit out at me.

UA (BTU/hr-F) 1042
Design Loss (BTU/hr) 83357
Year Loss (Million BTU/yr) 150
Greenhouse Gas (lb CO2) 19360