Hard starting 1999 Dodge with 24 valve

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Doc C

Doc C

Minister of Fire
Jul 26, 2017
730
Bonner County Idaho
I bought a 1999 Dodge with a Cummins last year. It had 2 lift pumps chained together and both were bad.

I removed both pumps, installed a Fass Titanium 95gph. Replaced injectors with Bosch RV 275 which were new and tested.
Installed BHAF
Came with Ottomind, high ram, and new turbo.

When it's cold outside like all last winter it would start fine after the heater grid turned off.

When it's hot out like now it takes awhile to start. Once it's started for the day it's fine.

I have no engine codes, no abnormal smoke, no drive ability issues, no fuel in oil verified by independent lab.

Any ideas?
 
Doc C said:
I bought a 1999 Dodge with a Cummins last year. It had 2 lift pumps chained together and both were bad.

I removed both pumps, installed a Fass Titanium 95gph. Replaced injectors with Bosch RV 275 which were new and tested.
Installed BHAF
Came with Ottomind, high ram, and new turbo.

When it's cold outside like all last winter it would start fine after the heater grid turned off.

When it's hot out like now it takes awhile to start. Once it's started for the day it's fine.

I have no engine codes, no abnormal smoke, no drive ability issues, no fuel in oil verified by independent lab.

Any ideas?
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based in the information provided, I will blame the injection pump. those two bad lift pumps can cause the injection pump to get weak if not enough fuel is supply for cooling and pumping. I will recommend to get a scanner and monitor the injector pump pressure at start up and go from there. another tip is check the ambient temp and coolant temp. you will need a scanner for that
 
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lsucet said:
based in the information provided, I will blame the injection pump. those two bad lift pumps can cause the injection pump to get weak if not enough fuel is supply for cooling and pumping. I will recommend to get a scanner and monitor the injector pump pressure at start up and go from there. another tip is check the ambient temp and coolant temp. you will need a scanner for that
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I was thinking injection pump as well but it's been a year since I got this truck on the road and that's the only issue is starting?? Would of though IP would if shoes itself by now?

I checked what I could with a snap on scanner awhile back and I could not see fuel pressure or temp?? It was very limited with what I could see.
 
Sometimes is hard to predict it. Sometimes they fail instantly and sometimes not. But we need to see if it is making the right PSI on start up when the long crank is in place. This way we can move forward. What I see is in cold weather as you stated the warm intake air by the grid is helping a lot with the quick start regardless that it can be cold outside. Those will be the areas that will look first and go from there.
 
I will double check all the components installed by you and in general check all the fuel delivery system to be sure everything is tight and no air in system. If you able to see the psi with a scanner on start up let me know. I will try to find that tomorrow what psi you should seen during cranking at work. Is been a while since I don't work on those. If that is ok the next step will be check compression. Like I said it can be lots of things but we need a starting point and start isolating areas that can cause that concern
 
lsucet said:
I will double check all the components installed by you and in general check all the fuel delivery system to be sure everything is tight and no air in system. If you able to see the psi with a scanner on start up let me know. I will try to find that tomorrow what psi you should seen during cranking at work. Is been a while since I don't work on those. If that is ok the next step will be check compression. Like I said it can be lots of things but we need a starting point and start isolating areas that can cause that concern
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Is it possible that the 1999 Dodges do not have the ECM or PCM that allows me to see the IP pressure?

I have checked the pressure at the fass pump and it is always within specs. And I can't test at the IP port because the Fass pump plumes into the Schrader valve.

I have checked for air leaks, also had the injectors retested.

When the valves were adjusted a couple MO the ago and while the problem was occurring the compression was tested and I don't remember what the shop told me, the numbers were well within spec.

Believe or not the heater grid was wired to the negative side of the battery when I bought the truck!!!!!! I know...someone was not very smart. When I found that, I thought I found the problem. But that did not fix it. The heater grids, both of them, work properly now that they are wired to the positive side of the battery.
 
OK I see. Let me dig a little tomorrow
 
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You are right. There is no PID for it in the scanner. If I understand correctly, this issue started lately, not long ago? If that the case, did you check fuel filter? Be sure you have good volume of fuel getting to the injection pump. I don't see anything else going on there to cause the long crank unless we have air getting in the system or injection pump going south.
 
During long crank, any white smoke?
 
In the OP he mentioned no abnormal smoke, but it can be good if he check on that. Good question.
 
lsucet said:
You are right. There is no PID for it in the scanner. If I understand correctly, this issue started lately, not long ago? If that the case, did you check fuel filter? Be sure you have good volume of fuel getting to the injection pump. I don't see anything else going on there to cause the long crank unless we have air getting in the system or injection pump going south.
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As soon as I got the truck running last year it has been a problem. So about 1 year but in the winter it starts fine.

I tried to click the started over and let the fass pump run for the 20seconds thinking somehow the fuel was bleeding out of the injection pump but even after the fass pump runs for 20 seconds it still starts hard.

If the injection pump was the problem why would it start fine all winter? This is the only reason I have not just replaced the pump to see, that and the fact the parts are at least $$1175!
 
lsucet said:
In the OP he mentioned no abnormal smoke, but it can be good if he check on that. Good question.
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There is no abnormal smoke at all. With all the mods if I floor it and load the engine up with fuel before the the turbo kicks in then I get quick puff of black smoke...that's only while driving down the road and I consider it normal with the larger injectors, Ottomind programmer, bhaf and high ram.

Other then that I do not get abnormal smoke. Also what would white smoke at start up be? Water?
 
Well the help of the grid and the duration on in cold days can make the difference. Check if you disconnect the fuel relay and crank it what it does.
 
lsucet said:
Well the help of the grid and the duration on in cold days can make the difference. Check if you disconnect the fuel relay and crank it what it does.
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I tried disconnecting the fass pump to see if it was over fueling the injectors pump and it still had a hard time starting. I'm guessing this is what you are asking me to try by pulling the relay?
 
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Doc C said:
There is no abnormal smoke at all. With all the mods if I floor it and load the engine up with fuel before the the turbo kicks in then I get quick puff of black smoke...that's only while driving down the road and I consider it normal with the larger injectors, Ottomind programmer, bhaf and high ram.

Other then that I do not get abnormal smoke. Also what would white smoke at start up be? Water?
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Yes more likely
 
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Doc C said:
I tried disconnecting the fass pump to see if it was over fueling the injectors pump and it still had a hard time starting. I'm guessing this is what you are asking me to try by pulling the relay?
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Yes you are correct
 
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I think you are doing good in narrow down this issue. Like you, I also think that injection pump is the culprit here. But before pull the plug on it I will check all the lines and connections, any seals etc. Track the time that takes to duplicate it. If is two hrs after you park or eight hrs, or don't matter
 
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It is at least 12 hours to duplicate it. Then it's fine for the whole day.
 
lsucet said:
I think you are doing good in narrow down this issue. Like you, I also think that injection pump is the culprit here. But before pull the plug on it I will check all the lines and connections, any seals etc. Track the time that takes to duplicate it. If is two hrs after you park or eight hrs, or don't matter
Click to expand...

I'm conflicted about replacing the injection pump. On one hand I can get one of the turned up pumps and get some more power out of the truck that I will never use!?!? On the other hand it's about $1800 for one of the more HP pumps. It might be worth waiting for it to go out. I have towing coverage on my insurance and lots of friends and family with trailers around.

I was hoping I was overlooking something that would be a cheap fix.
 
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Also what would white smoke at start up be? Water?[/QUOTE said:
White smoke at startup on a diesel usually means air in your fuel system.Water would continue to produce white smoke after it was running as well.
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There is a basket like filter in line with the fuel filter that could be clogged, just enough to be giving you issues. On my 12 valve years ago after changing out fuel filter I could not get it started, and this was the reason. I'm not sure if the 24 valves have this same design but it's worth a shot. I do believe something could be wrong with your injector pump, I thing on the 24 valves they are electronic where on the 12 valves they are mechanical. The whole starting in the cold but not when it's warm seems odd. Have you had a diesel mechanic look at it? Have you changed out the fuel filter?
 
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