HS Tarm Excel Opinions?

[dlimanov]

New to the forum, so please be gentle.
We have a 2,200 sq ft house in Central Mass with 20-year old oil boiler (water heat via baseboards) that it's on its last leg. Current oil service company said another year, tops. Being on a search for alternative heating options and geothermal is being too expensive, solar being not an option for my location and coal is just being PITA in terms of certification for the town I live in, combination wood/oil burner seemed like a good idea.
Did some searching around and zeroed in on two manufacturers and their systems: HS Tarm with Excel boiler and Benjamin with CS550. Benjamin looks like a simpler and therefore more reliable, if a little less efficient option. It's also much less money.
However, my goal is to have a system that can be used primarily as wood boiler with oil as a fall-back if we're not home. It looks like Excel will do that with high(er) efficiency but a)it requires water thermal storage tank and b)it is significantly more expensive.
Question for the wise and the experienced: does anyone have a real first-hand experience with HS Tarm Excel unit in similar configuration as mine? Is it really worth the premium price? I did talk to their sales guys and installer in the area, and they all assured me that it's the best product on the market for my particular application; I don't mind spending the money, I just don't want to drop 20K on something that doesn't work as a 20K system should. Again, my main requirement is that the system can serve as an alternative to existing 100% oil heat setup and be as efficient at it, as the manufacturer claims. Secondary oil burning efficiency is somewhat important, but I'd like to switch to wood as much as possible so I can stop paying exuberant oil heating bills that keep on coming..
Any and all advices and opinions are appreciated in advance!

Dimitri

 

[woodmaster]

The Excel is an excellent boiler . You are paying the price as you are basically getting two boilers in one unit, the oil side and the wood side. I have a storage tank and get all my DHW all year by burning wood. I am not familiar with the other brand that you are looking at so the only comment I can make there is to make sure that it is a gasification boiler like the tarm. My house is 2400sq.ft. all radiant , I have a storage tank which I would strongly reccomend. I heat my house and get all my domestic hot water on about 5 cords. During the summer I fire the boiler once a week to get my hot water. This time of year evry other day or so as there is a heating load on the tank. During the winter every day. Burning with wood requires some dedication but in my case my wood comes basically free and I enjoy it , I also enjoy not paying $4000 plus for oil a year.

 

[dlimanov]

woodmaster, thanks for your reply! How long ago did you install the system and how many winters has it been used? How often do you have to feed the wood to the boiler to maintain comfortable temperature in the house? Once a day, few times a day, more? Lastly, was the STSS tank provided/suggested by HS Tarm or was it a separate purchase and installation?
Thanks again for your response.

Dimitri

 

[Mack The Knife]

Pellet boilers are making some people that have HWBB heating systems smile that don't want to deal with wood. Besides the TARM, also look at Traeger PB150, Maine Energy Sytems, Harmon PB105, Orlan Pellet Boilers. Depending on the system quality and features you seek/desire and current availability, you can decide which way to go. I'm still patiently waiting...
Best of Luck!

 

[Mack The Knife]

Look at the thread that I think I started in May. Pellet Boilers...Where are you??? There was some good info put out in that. PM me if you have further questions.

 

[dlimanov]

Mack: my goal is to have combination oil/alternative fuel boiler, I don't want to convert fully to either wood, coal, pellet or something else. Do any of the units you mention do dual-burning?
Thanks for your reply, too!

Dimitri
P.S. I'm in somewhat Central Massachusetts, Holliston to be exact.

 

[dlimanov]

Bump to the top, maybe anyone else has more input..

 

[machinistbcb]

Make sure your oil boiler really only has one year left. In my opion 20 years old is not that really that old for a boiler. The oil dealer may just wont to sell you a new one. That being said you could just by a wood burning only gasifier and save yourself like $6000.00

 

[dlimanov]

machinistbcb: Thanks for your reply! Local oil guys installed and serviced the current boiler in 1978, when the house was built, so it's a more like 30 years old. They maintained it from day 1, and have been really good, I have no reason to believe they're trying to just sell me a new one. Plus, it's been breaking down a lot, costing me another $1500-2000 per year in repairs, on top of the heating bill.
The reason I don't want to go all in with just the wood (or pellets) is because I'd like to keep oil as a backup. I have an infant in the house and I can't afford to not have heat or hot water in case fire went out, or my wife didn't feed it when I was away for work, or something else occurred. I need to have the fail-over capabilities of a multi-fue boiler for these exact scenarios, and so far Tarm looks to fit the bill (no pun intended). Just need some feedback from real users since I'm not familiar with the company and their products, or the industry in general for that matter.

Dimitri

 

[flyingcow]

Seems like someone out there has experience with the excel.
Get a list of questions and call Tarm again. They're very patient, trust me on that one. I've got a tarm solo on order. They have been around along time. Got people in my area that has had tarms for decades and would buy them again.
That being said, pellets or coal systems are something to look at. I'm sure you've already got the figures, but figure a cord of wood = about 150 gals of oil(maybe more with the thermal storage, which can be installed at a later date.). Tarm supplied this figure and alot of others on this board had the same #'s. You need to have good seasoned wood for a gasifier. As you know that stuff isn't cheap. Plus you handle the wood many times. Coal or pellets might be something to look at. They were very comparable to wood as far as cost. Just my .02.
Can someone on this board recommend another BBS that might have some info ?

 

[dlimanov]

flyingcow: Thank you for your response! I did look into pellet heating and I do like Bosch/MeSYS system with automated truck delivery of pellets to the house the same way oil is being delivered, but currently it's Maine only and no one in Mass offers the same level of service.
Lat year we used closed to 1700 gallons of oil, with today's prices the same amount of oil is going to cost close to $7K. Cord of wood where I live is around $300 per cord delivered and if 10 cords keep me heated throughout the year with minimal oil use, it's definitely worth it. I also have a lot of pine trees around me that I need to cut down and can use for fire wood, but someone told me you can't use pine for heating, as it damages fireplaces and flues. Don't know if it's a fact, but if I can use pine to burn in Excel, my costs will be even less.
So these are my numbers and deciding factors.

Dimitri

 

[Mack The Knife]

Go on the MES web site and look at their "certified" installers. There are at least three in Mass. One in Danvers, one in Holyoke and one in Northbridge.
For my two cents...
You have to ask yourself, why would burning pellets be any different than burning oil? If the power goes out on any electrical appliance, it goes out for all electrical appliances. The same scenario for fuel..... it doesn't matter what you are burning it is still fuel. What are you going to do with oil sitting on the side while you save money burning wood/pellets/ or any other biomass fuel?
Best of luck!

 

[kevindauch]

Hi dlimanov,
As far as burning pine, it won't the Tarm. It just burns quick, so you don't get as many btus out of it per volume as you will from hardwood. I was looking into the Excel from Tarm a while back, but decided to go with the Solo 40. It was a size issue for me, the Excel is over 48 inches deep, and I would have to get creative to get it into my basement. Also with a separate oil boiler with a much smaller water jacket I will get better efficiency in the summer when I plan on using oil for my domestic hot water which is an indirect tank off my manifold. Eventually I will probably go solar for hot water in the summer, but I'm waiting for a friend of mine to finish his system and see how thing work out for him.

flyingcow: Thank you for your response! I did look into pellet heating and I do like Bosch/MeSYS system with automated truck delivery of pellets to the house the same way oil is being delivered, but currently it's Maine only and no one in Mass offers the same level of service.
Lat year we used closed to 1700 gallons of oil, with today's prices the same amount of oil is going to cost close to $7K. Cord of wood where I live is around $300 per cord delivered and if 10 cords keep me heated throughout the year with minimal oil use, it's definitely worth it. I also have a lot of pine trees around me that I need to cut down and can use for fire wood, but someone told me you can't use pine for heating, as it damages fireplaces and flues. Don't know if it's a fact, but if I can use pine to burn in Excel, my costs will be even less.
So these are my numbers and deciding factors.

Dimitri

 

[dlimanov]

Go on the MES web site and look at their "certified" installers. There are at least three in Mass. One in Danvers, one in Holyoke and one in Northbridge.
For my two cents...
You have to ask yourself, why would burning pellets be any different than burning oil? If the power goes out on any electrical appliance, it goes out for all electrical appliances. The same scenario for fuel..... it doesn't matter what you are burning it is still fuel. What are you going to do with oil sitting on the side while you save money burning wood/pellets/ or any other biomass fuel?
Best of luck!

Mack: Thanks for you response and for the thread you pointed me in previous emails, I've spent good portion of my night reading through it. I did check MES and while installers are available in Mass, the automatic delivery - the part that attracted me most - isn't.
I do like the idea of having oil around for the warmer days, or maybe times when we're not home for a day or two -- no need to rush home to feed the boiler or otherwise face frozen pipes. I am planning to use wood primarily when it's cold out as most of my usage is hot water -- with an infant in the house, laundry is going non-stop. And now that pine is OK to use, I have close to unlimited supply in my yard, as long as I'm not lazy. So it may just work!
I called one of the contractors for Tarm, he's going to come in and give me an estimate on Excel 2200, tank and installation. Let's see how it goes..

Dimitri

 

[flyingcow]

Dimitri---You've done you're homework.
I'll give you my #'s. I have 1800sq/ft house(2 story) with a full basement(no heat down there). Live on a hill in northern maine. House was built 12 yrs ago. Big mistake..but I only put r-19 in the walls plus 38+ in the ceiling.
I have a weil mclain oil fired, 85,00 btu boiler with an amtrol(boiler mate) system. Oh yeah a major point to bring up. I have 3 kids, from 9yrs to 14. Alot of shower time. We were only using about 800 gals of oil, but that will go up. Just recently we are averaging 45 minutes of shower time between the whole family. I am putting in a tarm solo 30(in the next 3 weeks) with storage in the very near future(maybe in the spring). I'm hoping to do this on 4 to 6 cord.
You're excell should perform the same as any type of gasifier, but you'll have the all in one set up. Major advantage.

 

[dlimanov]

OK, got the first quote: $27,500 with pressurized tank and additional indirect water heater. Am I crazy or this is a bit too freaking high?
On a separate topic, out of four authorized dealers, only one returned my call. So much for a bad economy!

 

[stee6043]

Holy moly.....that seems rather high to me. Doing the work myself I've got about $15k into my EKO 40 with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage. No way would I pay someone another $12k to install it (with the water heater). I think you've picked a pretty busy season to start pricing your system. That may be a big part of the price.

 

[dlimanov]

Yep, I'm thinking the same. I didn't get a detailed quote, but was told that boiler was close to $14k and the tank(s) were another $6k + the install. Still sounds too high to me.
I'm going to call around to see what other dealers can offer.

 

[stee6043]

For reference I paid $2500 for two brand new 500 gallon propane tanks....

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

OK, got the first quote: $27,500 with pressurized tank and additional indirect water heater. Am I crazy or this is a bit too freaking high?
On a separate topic, out of four authorized dealers, only one returned my call. So much for a bad economy!

No, I would expect that's pretty much spot-on for a professional install, depending upon what's included and how difficult the install is.

They gave you the correct pricing for the boiler and tanks, and then you need to figure all the piping, pumps, and such that need to be added. Plus the indirect.

Holy moly.....that seems rather high to me. Doing the work myself I've got about $15k into my EKO 40 with 1000 gallons of pressurized storage. No way would I pay someone another $12k to install it (with the water heater). I think you've picked a pretty busy season to start pricing your system. That may be a big part of the price.

Remember, the Excel is a combination boiler, not just a wood boiler. A Solo Plus 40 (roughly equivalent to the Excel 2200) is $5k less than the Excel.

So that's $7500 to install, including all piping, wiring, pumps, controls, and the indirect (a decent indirect is right around a grand), and the labor to put them together. Plus freight/labor to actually place the boiler, which is not trivial for a boiler that large and heavy.

Joe

 

[dlimanov]

Joe,
Thank you for your response. I was budgeting about $20K for Excel 2200 and open-style tank but space requirements seem to force the pressurized tank storage. Also, indirect tank the installer suggested has two coils, the second one could be used to another heating source, like solar if I decide to go that route in the future. That requires a separate zone and from what I understand, they were planning to replace simple valves currently on each zone with pumps -- I was lost about half-way through the explanation.
I am going to get two more quotes to see if they are all relatively in line with these guys.
Thanks everyone for your feedback, I will update the thread as more information comes in.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

Joe,
Thank you for your response. I was budgeting about $20K for Excel 2200 and open-style tank but space requirements seem to force the pressurized tank storage. Also, indirect tank the installer suggested has two coils, the second one could be used to another heating source, like solar if I decide to go that route in the future. That requires a separate zone and from what I understand, they were planning to replace simple valves currently on each zone with pumps -- I was lost about half-way through the explanation.
I am going to get two more quotes to see if they are all relatively in line with these guys.
Thanks everyone for your feedback, I will update the thread as more information comes in.

Dual-coil tanks are often pretty expensive, depending upon the particular brand. Deleting that might save some money. Of course, if you want that functionality, it wouldn't be a good idea - it's just important to consider that "upgrade" cost separately from the boiler, since it really doesn't relate to the current install.

It sounds like they were planning to re-do most of the system if they were going to switch from zone valves to pumps. (there's no specific reason to do that switch, but that's a separate discussion) If re-doing the system is be necessary, that would tend to make the installation one of the more expensive sorts. Of course, if that's actually what they were going to do, then you'd be getting a mostly-new heating system for the price they quoted.

Joe