Hydrogen/"browns gas generator" - what do you all know about this?

[mikeathens]

OK, so this friend of mine comes into work, saying"you gotta check this out" (add a Greenup KY accent for full effect).

He starts talking about these supposed hydrogen generators, basically a mason jar, filled with water, and a stainless coil running through it. The coil has power running through it, switched by the ignition. When you add power, hydrogen bubbles up and out a tube and into the vacuum lines or intake manifold of your car, flowing into the gas/air mix. "this thing will boost mileage by 25%-100%" he says excitedly. "there's this book that cost's $100, I'm looking for some people to go in on it with me". OK, my skepticism kicks in, and I start thinking "SCAM" right away.

It seems like this would be out in the news and "newsflash" on national news if this worked.

I figure there are some people here that might know about this. I mean, it's not a WVO system! It's one of those "free energy" things.

OK, let's hear what you all think...

 

[Redox]

Snake oil! Nobody has figured out how to split water molecules without a LOT of energy. Your car's alternator isn't going to be big enough...

Chris

 

[iceman]

check hydro4000.com
you'll see

 

[Redox]

WOW! Only $1200. Their FAQ is almost comical:

"Tests have shown that distilled water is a bit better than tap water as an electrolytic medium." HUH?

And:

"It's absolutely safe and HYDROGEN is not as dangerous as gasoline." ROFL...

Calling the Mythbusters! Project for 'ya!

Chris

 

[mikeathens]

I know it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than you get back. I did wonder, though, if *maybe* it could be a case of the ICE running more efficiently, maybe making more of the gasoline? I don;'t know, I never heard of this, but it sounded like a scam. I did see that this is one method of reducing NOx emissions.

 

[TMonter]

Hydrogen is a less efficient molecule in an IC engine. It creates too much heat for not enough gas volume. Actually hydrogen makes NOx emissions worse as it burns much hotter than gas or diesel.

 

[whenley]

Complete snake oil. Total hoax.

Problem 1:
Even the highest output HHO generation cells put out about 2liters/min (l/min)at around 400W input electrical power. Considering that a 1600cc engine at 2500rpm flows about 1900 l/min of air, the 2 l/min of HHO is insignificant even if it did combust.

Problem2:
From thermodynamics standpoint - you NEVER get something for nothing, otherwise you would have perpetual motion.
The source for the Hydrogen is water. The end product out the exhaust is water. So nothing has changed, it goes from water to water.
There is NO WAY to extract energy from a system without changing the system.

 

[mikeathens]

I'm sitting here right now, and he's STILL talking about it. In fact, there's a crowd in here listening.

 

[tkirk22]

This would be a good one for mythbusters. I'm sure the marketing info is full of hype and BS but I can't say that the idea is not without some merit. I believe it's well proven with a diesel engine that you can inject propane into the intake and that will aid in burning fuel that would normally leave the stack unburnt. It's a synergistic effect that adds more energy than either component individually. It doesn't break any laws of thermodynamics, it just make combustion more efficient.

That said, I don't know how much hydrogen injection would help a gasoline engine. It may very well be BS, but I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money against it....or for it ;-)

 

[mikeathens]

There is a mythbusters discussion of this, alsong with what looks like pretty detailed description of why it wouldn't work:

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9551919888/m/2321969559

But then, there's always some uncertainty. I've pretty much decided that this is a bunch of BS and have been giving my buddy a really hard time about it, but what if it does improve his MPG?? I'll never hear the end of it...

 

[tkirk22]

Interesting read, however it looks to me like it was written by a know-it-all 2nd year chem student rather than a fuel chemist and someone with extensive knowledge of internal combustion engines.

Here's one quote that caught my eye:

But, but, but... the claims are that the hydrogen is a "catalyst" and makes the gasoline burn more efficiently.

So? That claim is just wrong. We know we can't affect the thermal efficiency of the Carnot cycle by very much, so 75% is still going to be "wasted". Even if the hydrogen did act as a "catalyst", there is no more energy to be released -- 99% of the gasoline does undergo combustion. A 300% gain in efficiency would imply that we are now getting 399% of the theoretically-retrievable energy that the gasoline contains (well, actually more than 399% because we also need to cover the losses from the electrolysis). This is just asinine and Carnot says otherwise. Energy can not be created from nothing -- the gasoline can NOT give more than 100% of what it has.

An internal combustion engine runs by generating a certain amount of pressure in the chamber for a certain period of time. Simple chemistry equations cannot model the peak pressure and average pressure inside a combustion chamber at different RPMs , cylinder filling, spark timings, etc.

Let's assume that 99% of the fuel does in fact burn. That doesn't mean it burned efficiently to create work. It doesn't take into account how fast it burned and when it burned in the combustion stroke. Speed of burn and burn timing are two important factors to translate pressure into engine work. Any fuel additive (hydrogen or otherwise) that allows a higher compression ratio, better spark timing, and/or higher average chamber pressures on the down stroke would have a higher efficiency increase than the authors simple equations would predict.

Engines can be made to run lean at idle and at light cruise speeds. EPA requirements limit the emissions though and most manufacturers don't seem too interested in making engines that can run in leaner conditions while still passing emission testing. That requires new catalytic designs, new head designs, etc.

The hydrogen hype may be BS on this scale but that author doesn't know enough to convince me.

This thread and my latest gas fill-up got me interested in doing research and I just stumbled across these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFifFR-4C28&feature=related

In video 3 in the series he explains how the super fast burn speed of hydrogen can allow the engine timing to be retarded and still burn the gasoline while the crank angle is still 'right'. It would be acting as a catalyst in that case. It makes sense and matches what I know.

BTW, I only watched the first 3 videos and don't know a thing about that guy. If he goes batshiat insane later on in the series please don't blame me ;-)

 

[mikeathens]

Kirk...that's the whole point...batshiat insane!! That's what I'm starting to think about all of this. I mean, why haven't we read about this in any scientific journals (at least that I'm aware of)? Why isn't this receiving full coverage on nightly news? They report on all sorts of other bugus stuff, why not this? I'm not convinced.

My buddy came in the other day excited that he watched a video where some guy rigged up a wheel with some magnets...and claimed that the energy output from the generator was more than the electrical input from the battery. He even had gages on thie whole setup to prove it. "Holy S***!!" I exclaimed. "This dude just invented a perpetual motion machine. He has just changed the course of history No more war, no more fossil fuels required ever!!". Wait, why are physicists and engineers flocking to this guy's house? Why isn't he being worshipped like a god?

Just complete garbage. I refuse to believe that someone just cobbed something together in their garage and improved efficiency by 50% using a mason jar filled with water.

 

[tkirk22]

I did some research yesterday and even thought about trying hho on a 460ci gas pig that I own that will need a new engine soon anyway.

I came to the conclusion that even if it could help, it's at the hobbyist experimental stage right now. There are very few credible mileage increases that I have found. The high mileage increase claims are ALL by someone who sells systems. The credible claims were somewhere around 10% increase however that could easily be attributed to other engine changes such as leaning out the mixture or driving changes.

I also looked on the Megasquirt site which is an open source engine control system capable of controlling fuel, spark, and more. If there is a group of people capable of running hho as an additive it is these guys. I couldn't find anyone who has a running hho setup with a tuneable engine computer. (Maybe there is though and I didn't use the proper search terms or maybe they are in hiding because someone is out to get them;-)

I have seen cash rewards offered to prove the high mileage increases but the answers are the same ones that the snake oil salesman uses: The factory prohibits us from giving out names, trade secret, etc.

Then there's the obvious BS claims of a special electrolysis system that can produce more hho fuel than it consumes in electricity. It is possible that an electrolysis system can be optimized with electronics and electrode design but those other claims just break the laws of thermodynamics.

If you have a 'free' source of hydrogen from a wind generator or PV panels then it would be possible to run an engine on straight hydrogen gas similar to a propane powered engine. You'll need a small field of lower pressure tanks to supply a couple cars with fuel for a week or two. Then plan on buying a very high pressure compressor to fill the carbon fiber tank in the trunk. You will also need to address the spark timing on the engine and build the engine so it can handle the hydrogen embrittlement issues. Not easy or cheap.

I still think that it could be possible to achieve modest gains. Someone that wanted to experiment with a low volume setup would do best if they had an old spare car with a carb and distributor or an EFI system that allows them to control fuel and spark and monitor exhaust and head temps.