Insert into old open front coal fireplace

[brian89gp]

I have an old victorian house built in 1890 and it has those shallow coal burning fireplaces. I am thinking of putting in a wood burning fireplace insert (Buck model 21) and before I have a professional come and give everything a look to see if it is possible I would check with the professionals here first.

The fireplace in question is on an exterior wall. The house is of solid brick construction, 18" thick exterior walls, and the chimney has a 6" bump out from the brick wall. This is the old (softer) brick with lime mortar.

The flue itself at the base appears to be 8-10" by 24" wide. It is unlined. The chimney as it exits the house is of the same size so I imagine the flue is consistant sized all the way up. The liner would be approximately 30-35' straight up with the only bend possibly being at the insert itself to line up to the opening on the insert.

The fireplace itself has proper clearance to combustable materials. It does have a rather large wood mantle attached to the face of the chimney flue brick.



Now for the more general questions:

1. I plan on having a the best SS liner available put in the chimney. Should I be concerned about the old brick and lime mortar and the radiant heat from the SS liner? Would insulated pipe and/or the addition of poured in liner in addition to the SS liner be wise (such as 8" pour in/balloon liner with a 6" SS liner inside of it)? Is an insulated liner recommended?

2. I will need to remove the existing fire brick inside the fireplace to allow the insert to slide fully into the opening. Is this a problem? I couldn't find anything in the install instructions that even mention the existing fire brick. I can remove extra material and install a new larger fire brick lined opening if need be.

3. Do I need to be concerned about the wood mantle that is attached to the brick on the front of the existing flue?

4. There are 2 floor penetrations and 1 roof penetration for the brick chimney (the floor penetrations are really just a 6" bump out from the existing brick wall). It is fully exposed otherwise, plaster on brick for the interior of the outside walls. Should I put in some cement board or other fire proofing around the floor penetrations?



Mainly I want to make sure that firstly this it is possible to install this safely, and if it is then to install it in the safest way possible.

I will take pictures of whatever you want if that will help, just name it.

 

[brian89gp]

To add, I did call Buck Stove and ask them about the fire brick, they said as long as the fireplace is full masonry (it is) then it doesn't matter if there is firebrick or not. The insert can also be installed flush or inset to the fireplace front. The question above is more of would it be better to add the firebrick back in, or is this just me being overly paranoid.

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

1. I would insulate. It will improve you draft, add safety in the event of a chimney fire, and is required my liner mfgs.

2. This will be left up to the "expert" experts. Mine is an exterior insert like your and I had to "massage" my firebrick to get my insert into the fireplace further. Having found this site after I installed mine (hand slapping head). I would have let it extend out further into the room for more heat! If Buck says it's ok to do so I would have to yield to them as they are experts but I don't know what codes say and experts here are well versed in these!

3.Look at instructions for Buckstove and the one you want. It will show diagram of clearence to combustables

4.Not sure

 

[brian89gp]

1. I would insulate. It will improve you draft, add safety in the event of a chimney fire, and is required my liner mfgs.

2. This will be left up to the "expert" experts. Mine is an exterior insert like your and I had to "massage" my firebrick to get my insert into the fireplace further. Having found this site after I installed mine (hand slapping head). I would have let it extend out further into the room for more heat! If Buck says it's ok to do so I would have to yield to them as they are experts but I don't know what codes say and experts here are well versed in these!

3.Look at instructions for Buckstove and the one you want. It will show diagram of clearence to combustables

4.Not sure

How do you like your Model 74? I was going to put one of these in my other larger fireplace opening.

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

I only have experience with the nc-30 from Englander and my Buck. I have to say that they both are very fine stoves and burn very well. Alot of folks have the Englander and love them (3.5 cuft box). My Buck burns well, it is very heavy (460 lbs) and built of .25" steal case and 5/16" top. Was it worth almost a grand more that the Englander, I don't think so...

You having a an old Victorian house I would stuff the largest thing in there that I could! You won't be sorry and if worst comes to worst you can open windows...

 

[jeff_t]

How big is your house? What are the dimensions of the fireplace opening? Raised hearth or flush? Agree that bigger is probably better, depending on room layout. Any chance of a freestanding stove in front? You'll get better heat out of it. Pics are always good.

 

[brian89gp]

1400 sq ft each for the first/second floor. 1200sq ft attic soon to be finished and heated and 1200sq ft woodshop in the basement that needs some heat. So, 5400sq/ft of space with solid masonry exterior walls (ie, no insulation). Current heating load plus the expected from the finished attic is right at 200k btu/hr. I have two staircases (with doors), one at each end of the house in or near the two rooms that the fireplaces are going into to help heat the upstairs.

The opening for this fireplace is 24" wide and 26" tall, and it will accommodate roughly 18" of depth. The Buck Model 21 is literally the largest I can fit in this fireplace without tearing up the hand painted Victorian tile.

The other fireplace on the 1st floor has already been stripped of anything worth preserving so I am going to put in a second larger insert into it, eyeballing the Buck Model 74 for that one.

The goal is to offset the natural gas heating costs but not to completely replace them because to be honest it would be hard in this house. I also have very little yard so not enough room to store huge amounts of firewood.. I should be able to pay off the cost of one stove install per every 1.5 heating seasons at current gas prices (cheap) just by collecting free firewood from peoples yards.

40k btu from each fireplace going full out should heat the house except for the 2-3 coldest weeks of the year.

 

[jeff_t]

1400 sq ft each for the first/second floor. 1200sq ft attic soon to be finished and heated and 1200sq ft woodshop in the basement that needs some heat. So, 5400sq/ft of space with solid masonry exterior walls (ie, no insulation). Current heating load plus the expected from the finished attic is right at 200k btu/hr. I have two staircases (with doors), one at each end of the house in or near the two rooms that the fireplaces are going into to help heat the upstairs.

The opening for this fireplace is 24" wide and 26" tall, and it will accommodate roughly 18" of depth. The Buck Model 21 is literally the largest I can fit in this fireplace without tearing up the hand painted Victorian tile.

The other fireplace on the 1st floor has already been stripped of anything worth preserving so I am going to put in a second larger insert into it, eyeballing the Buck Model 74 for that one.

The goal is to offset the natural gas heating costs but not to completely replace them because to be honest it would be hard in this house. I also have very little yard so not enough room to store huge amounts of firewood.. I should be able to pay off the cost of one stove install per every 1.5 heating seasons at current gas prices (cheap) just by collecting free firewood from peoples yards.

40k btu from each fireplace going full out should heat the house except for the 2-3 coldest weeks of the year.

Do you have forced air? Sounds like a good job for a Max Caddy furnace.

 

[brian89gp]

I do. 3 separate gas furnaces on 3 separate floors.

That Max Caddy looks pretty interesting. I'll give it some thought, though it wouldn't be my first choice.