Inverter/Charger Question

[McKraut]

I am looking for a way to power the pump in my overheat loop in case of a power failure. I have a generator for back up, but if I am not home when the power goes out, I want to make sure the PEX doesn't overheat in my boiler shed.
I was planning on using a marine battery hooked up to an inverter/charger as my power source. I want to leave the pump wired to the system as it is now (for normal functioning with 115V), but I also want to plug it into the inverter/charger in case we lose power. I sent a series of e-mails to a rep and they told me a good product to use was a SAMLEX SAM-1500C-12.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I820DNQ/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_3p_dp_1
I ordered it and now that it has arrived, it doesn't look like it is the correct product. The only time I want the power to come from the inverter/charger is when the power goes out. It looks to me like this inverter would always supply 115V power to the pump all the time, either from the house or from the battery.
Also, wouldn't it create a problem if it is hooked up to both power sources, and there is a call for heat when the house is supplying the 115V? I would think that there would now be 115V going downstream to the inverter from the connection to the pump.
Any help is appreciated,

Bob

 

[bmblank]

You should have an overheat loop above your boiler so that it naturally flows there. Then use a normally open valve, closed when engaged, to prevent flow when you have power. If the power goes out, then the valve opens and heat flows up to the overheat circuit.

 

[__dan]

First look says it's not the right product. I would be thinking about returning it without even trying it. I would not consider wiring that in.

The product you would be looking for is a UPS. I don't use one for two reasons. Even with perfect conditions and maintenance, the expected battery lifetime is about 3 to 5 years in UPS duty. With a good battery, run time on battery is not that much. With a typical UPS, you would have a hard time running a 200 watt computer for 30 minutes on battery.

To apply a UPS on your application you would need to match up three parameters.

The UPS will run best loaded to 50% to 75% of its nameplate rating. Max load is 80% of the UPS nameplate. With a UPS rating, use the Watt rating and ignore the VA rating. Watts will be 80% of the VA rating and you may load max to 80% of the Watt rating. If you have a 200 watt circ you want a UPS rated about 500 Watt (700 VA), not 1500 VA.

Next match output type. Stay away from modified sine wave devices and use a full or true sine wave inverter/UPS. Smaller but higher quality unit. Many loads do not run on the modified sine wave output.

Next is matching your battery capacity to your wished for run time under load on battery. This is where you will spend the money and respend when the batteries age.

Quality manufacturers are Liebert, Belkin, Tripplite. APC makes both types, cheap junk and some higher grade stuff.

In a quality true sine wave UPS unit there are two general types, double conversion (always on inverter) and line interactive (switches to battery/inverter). Line interactive would be fine for your app.

I would expect to pay about $1000 for the unit with the batteries you need. Most of the money is in the bigger accessory battery cabinet. Good bateries are typically AGM in that application. I don't have an exact recommendation for you. I would have to call the manufacturer's reps and discuss options, pricing.

Search a bit on Amazon and when you find something that falls into the above, call the manufacturer for expert advice, an application sales engineer.

 

[BoilerMan]

I use a marine battery that goes in the boat (automotive in/outboard) in the summer. Instead of just leaving it sitting and periodically charging it in the winter I keep it for inverter use.

Gravity is the best backup as it doesn't age and need to be replaced. Gravity is always reliable, but your overheat loop needs to be designed to take advantage of it. Use 1" or larger copper or black iron.

TS

 

[McKraut]

You should have an overheat loop above your boiler so that it naturally flows there. Then use a normally open valve, closed when engaged, to prevent flow when you have power. If the power goes out, then the valve opens and heat flows up to the overheat circuit.

That would have been the optimal situation but space constraints killed that idea. I am trying to make the best of the situation I have now.

Bob

 

[McKraut]

I don't know if this is true but my assumption is that the UPS provides power to the device that's plugged in whether it is from the grid or from batteries. Is that correct?

I am looking for a set up like an emergency light in a building. It;s not on when the power is on, but it lights up when the power goes off.

Bob

 

[McKraut]

I use a marine battery that goes in the boat (automotive in/outboard) in the summer. Instead of just leaving it sitting and periodically charging it in the winter I keep it for inverter use.

Gravity is the best backup as it doesn't age and need to be replaced. Gravity is always reliable, but your overheat loop needs to be designed to take advantage of it. Use 1" or larger copper or black iron.

TS

Can you tell me how your inverter is set up to power your system?

Bob

 

[goodwood]

I am looking for a way to power the pump in my overheat loop in case of a power failure. I have a generator for back up, but if I am not home when the power goes out, I want to make sure the PEX doesn't overheat in my boiler shed.
I was planning on using a marine battery hooked up to an inverter/charger as my power source. I want to leave the pump wired to the system as it is now (for normal functioning with 115V), but I also want to plug it into the inverter/charger in case we lose power. I sent a series of e-mails to a rep and they told me a good product to use was a SAMLEX SAM-1500C-12.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I820DNQ/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_3p_dp_1
I ordered it and now that it has arrived, it doesn't look like it is the correct product. The only time I want the power to come from the inverter/charger is when the power goes out. It looks to me like this inverter would always supply 115V power to the pump all the time, either from the house or from the battery.
Also, wouldn't it create a problem if it is hooked up to both power sources, and there is a call for heat when the house is supplying the 115V? I would think that there would now be 115V going downstream to the inverter from the connection to the pump.
Any help is appreciated,

Bob

you need one with an automatic transfer switch

 

[LarryInMontana]

Hi Bob, I would like to give you the answer but first let me qualify myself so you will trust what I say. Over the last 12 years I have designed and installed over 3000 PV solar, inverter and battery systems. I know this product well and exactly how it functions. I used to be a Samlex dealer but dropped their line a couple years ago because of poor dealer support.

This inverter has a built in battery charger and transfer switch. It will do what you are looking for once you understand how to use it.

The inverter AC input comes from the circuit that is now providing power to your pump. Disconnect the AC power to the pump and put it on the AC input of the inverter. The pump, and any other load that you need to keep powered, is then wired to the AC output of the inverter. The battery is connected to the battery terminals.

Operation: As long as you have AC power to the inverter, it will pass through the utility power while charging your battery at the same time. As soon as you loose utility power, the inverter will use the battery power to continue running your loads. As soon as utility power is restored, the inverter will revert back to passing power and charging the battery. If I read you correctly, that is what you wanted. To test the system, turn off the AC breaker feeding the inverter and it will take over the loads.

Some not so good news: You have purchased a modified square wave inverter, aka, a "modified sine wave inverter", a misnomer. Some electronics can be damaged or distroyed by a MSW inverter. It would have been better to choose a sinewave but you might still be OK. You will just have to try it to know if it is OK.

Let me know if you have any questions about this.

BTW, I am new to the group and this is my first post. Later I will have questions about a boiler system I am designing to install next summer.

Larry in Montana

I am looking for a way to power the pump in my overheat loop in case of a power failure. I have a generator for back up, but if I am not home when the power goes out, I want to make sure the PEX doesn't overheat in my boiler shed.
I was planning on using a marine battery hooked up to an inverter/charger as my power source. I want to leave the pump wired to the system as it is now (for normal functioning with 115V), but I also want to plug it into the inverter/charger in case we lose power. I sent a series of e-mails to a rep and they told me a good product to use was a SAMLEX SAM-1500C-12.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I820DNQ/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_3p_dp_1
I ordered it and now that it has arrived, it doesn't look like it is the correct product. The only time I want the power to come from the inverter/charger is when the power goes out. It looks to me like this inverter would always supply 115V power to the pump all the time, either from the house or from the battery.
Also, wouldn't it create a problem if it is hooked up to both power sources, and there is a call for heat when the house is supplying the 115V? I would think that there would now be 115V going downstream to the inverter from the connection to the pump.
Any help is appreciated,

Bob

 

[McKraut]

Hi Bob, I would like to give you the answer but first let me qualify myself so you will trust what I say. Over the last 12 years I have designed and installed over 3000 PV solar, inverter and battery systems. I know this product well and exactly how it functions. I used to be a Samlex dealer but dropped their line a couple years ago because of poor dealer support.

This inverter has a built in battery charger and transfer switch. It will do what you are looking for once you understand how to use it.

The inverter AC input comes from the circuit that is now providing power to your pump. Disconnect the AC power to the pump and put it on the AC input of the inverter. The pump, and any other load that you need to keep powered, is then wired to the AC output of the inverter. The battery is connected to the battery terminals.

Operation: As long as you have AC power to the inverter, it will pass through the utility power while charging your battery at the same time. As soon as you loose utility power, the inverter will use the battery power to continue running your loads. As soon as utility power is restored, the inverter will revert back to passing power and charging the battery. If I read you correctly, that is what you wanted. To test the system, turn off the AC breaker feeding the inverter and it will take over the loads.

Some not so good news: You have purchased a modified square wave inverter, aka, a "modified sine wave inverter", a misnomer. Some electronics can be damaged or distroyed by a MSW inverter. It would have been better to choose a sinewave but you might still be OK. You will just have to try it to know if it is OK.

Let me know if you have any questions about this.

BTW, I am new to the group and this is my first post. Later I will have questions about a boiler system I am designing to install next summer.

Larry in Montana

Larry,

Thank you for your help, and welcome to the forum. This is the place for help. I was happy to find it. I'm going to have to think this one through for a while. I may be asking you a few questions.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[McKraut]

The inverter AC input comes from the circuit that is now providing power to your pump. Disconnect the AC power to the pump and put it on the AC input of the inverter. The pump, and any other load that you need to keep powered, is then wired to the AC output of the inverter. The battery is connected to the battery terminals.

Operation: As long as you have AC power to the inverter, it will pass through the utility power while charging your battery at the same time. As soon as you loose utility power, the inverter will use the battery power to continue running your loads. As soon as utility power is restored, the inverter will revert back to passing power and charging the battery. If I read you correctly, that is what you wanted. To test the system, turn off the AC breaker feeding the inverter and it will take over the loads.

Larry,

I'm still trying to wrap my limited imagination around what is going on with the inverter. If I was to put the AC power (going from the control panel to the pump) into the inverter, wouldn't the inverter switch to battery power, and run the pump, as soon as the zone stopped calling for heat? Can you clarify this?
If it exists, I would like a switch that when powered by the house, keeps the battery/inverter circuit open. But, when the house 115V stops, it closes the circuit for the battery. Goodwood above says that I need an automatic transfer switch. I don't see any that would work for the 115V/12V set up I have. Would this simplify the set up?
Thanks for your help. Bob

 

[McKraut]

you need one with an automatic transfer switch

Do you have a specific model I can look at?

Bob

 

[LarryInMontana]

Bob,

I have attached a drawing that might help. Your boiler system might be hard wired to your AC breaker panel. If so, you will need to rewire it so you have a 120 Volt male plug that you can plug into the inverter outlet. Then just connect the battery and plug into a 120 volt outlet. It will work as I described in my previous post.

Larry

Bob[/quote]

Larry,

I'm still trying to wrap my limited imagination around what is going on with the inverter. If I was to put the AC power (going from the control panel to the pump) into the inverter, wouldn't the inverter switch to battery power, and run the pump, as soon as the zone stopped calling for heat? ...
Bob

 

[elmsd]

If I understand what McKraut is trying to do, he would cut the 120v power to the pump and place a 120v socket there,then plug in the APC there,then wire a plug onto the pump and plug into the APC.

Would he not need a fake zone signal to turn on the pump during a powerloss.

I'm thinking a 120v relay that can switch between normal zone signal and fake zone signal which is powered by the APC. The relay power comes from the main power and if power is lost it switches to fake mode turning on pump...

 

[McKraut]

Bob,

I have attached a drawing that might help. Your boiler system might be hard wired to your AC breaker panel. If so, you will need to rewire it so you have a 120 Volt male plug that you can plug into the inverter outlet. Then just connect the battery and plug into a 120 volt outlet. It will work as I described in my previous post.

Larry

[/quote]

Ok, I get it. Earlier you said the product I had wasn't the best choice. Is there a sine wave that you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[McKraut]

If I understand what McKraut is trying to do, he would cut the 120v power to the pump and place a 120v socket there,then plug in the APC there,then wire a plug onto the pump and plug into the APC.

Would he not need a fake zone signal to turn on the pump during a powerloss.

I'm thinking a 120v relay that can switch between normal zone signal and fake zone signal which is powered by the APC. The relay power comes from the main power and if power is lost it switches to fake mode turning on pump...

Do you know if there is a relay that would work in this situation?

Bob

 

[LarryInMontana]

The inverter you have may just work fine although Samlex has not had a good track record with inverter/chargers. Their last one had 100% failure and had to be recalled. I recommend the Magnum Energy MMS1012 inverter/charger. It is great quality, made in the USA and very reliable.

Larry

Ok, I get it. Earlier you said the product I had wasn't the best choice. Is there a sine wave that you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[elmsd]

If it is what I'm thinking a 120v coil relay from omron or allen bradly with a socket would work!
I'm a newbe here, so more experienced members could chime in with something better!

 

[ewdudley]

If it is what I'm thinking a 120v coil relay from omron or allen bradly with a socket would work!
I'm a newbe here, so more experienced members could chime in with something better!

If you're using an enclosure for other relays and/or related components, as you suggest omron relays in relay sockets on DIN rails or just fastened with screws work nice.

If you're just doing an isolated relay in a junction box or such, then a Function Devices RIB (relay in a box) may be more convenient. Most of their models accept 24/120/240 VAC. Here's a SPDT, they also have other models that may be better for your situation.

(broken link removed to http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/datasheets/C1083.pdf)

 

[LarryInMontana]

I am looking for a way to power the pump in my overheat loop in case of a power failure.

Bob,

Please clarify what you are trying to do. I don't understand why you are talking about relays as the inverter you bought has a transfer relay built in and will do what you asked in your first post. In fact, it will do more, it will backup your whole boiler system in case of utility power outage.

Operation: As long as you have AC power to the inverter, it will pass through the utility power while charging your battery at the same time. As soon as you loose utility power, the inverter will use the battery power to continue running your loads. As soon as utility power is restored, the inverter will revert back to passing power and charging the battery.

 

[maple1]

I think there's some mis-talking or mis-hearing going on in this one - it's a pretty entertaining circular thread anyway.

I think the primary thing that is wanted is something that, when the power goes out, will run a pump. That's a UPS or inverter with transfer switch & batteries. But, that solution will also run the pump when the power is on. Which I don't think is wanted.

So, the solution will need to involve using not just the pump plugged into a UPS or inverter, but also the controls for the pump as well.

My boiler pump is pretty straightforward on the control side - just an aquastat that turns the pump on when the boiler is up to temp (there is also a flue stat in the picture but don't want to complicate the talk here any more than necessary). So, what I have plugged into my UPS is actually the aquastat. Which in turn feeds power to the pump as needed.

Maybe more info is needed on what turns your pump on & off. Instead of plugging just the pump in, you need to plug in controls downstream of that somwhere. Or just plug your whole system into it. Is the pump that wants to be run when the power out, for that purpose only & pumps for nothing else? Or is it a load pump too? Or boiler pump too? Maybe changing up the controls a bit by putting in another stat (maybe a Johnson A-419 with the probe in a suitable place) that would plug into the solution then the pump is hooked up to that?

Seemed like a simple question & solution at first...

 

[LarryInMontana]

... But, that solution will also run the pump when the power is on. Which I don't think is wanted.

Seemed like a simple question & solution at first...

Hi Maple,

It seems simple to me but I may still be missing his objective. If Bob connects the pump directly to the inverter, bypassing the control that turns the pump on now, then you are correct. Perhaps Bob does not have any automatic control of the pump which seems odd. Why have the bypass pump if it will not automatically start on overtemp?

But, if it is controlled then the inverter will come on with a power failure and have 120 volts available in case of an overtemp event. Since Bob already bought the inverter I suggested a way to use it to backup his whole system, not just one pump, which is far more logical.

So, Bob, is the pump under automatic control or do you have to turn it on manually? If automatic, then I still suggest using the inverter for your whole boiler system. Then you still have heat if power fails. All pumps, controlls and zone valves will still function.

Larry

 

[maple1]

Who's on first?

 

[LarryInMontana]

Right........Who?

I just realized that he provided a diagram image. The diagram Bob attached does not show all circuits. The Taco SR501 is providing power to the overtemp pump and get's power from the Tekmar 401. Where is the Tekmar getting power? What othe 120 volt circuits are there? It would help me to see everythng that is 120 volts to recommend where to place the inverter.

Larry