Keeping pipes from freezing - unheated pump house.

[Aranyic]

Got a question to find out if I wasted a bunch of money last year of if it's necessary to keep an unheated portion of my water supply heated with a space heater. I am in the country on a well. Out of the well the water goes into my shop which is not heated. There's a small corner where the previous owners had put a bathroom (all unhooked now due to frozen lines when the place was empty) and then the pressure tank/water softener is in there. 2 walls of the small area are 2x4 w/ insulation and the other 2 are cinder block insulated. From there the main to the house goes underground to the main house and comes up an exterior wall and actually above the ceiling into the attic space (under insulation but still meh). Kitchen sink and original shower are both exterior walls. I have to keep that shower dripping regardless in the winter to keep it from freezing once things get below about 20 degrees. Because of the water path that actually keeps all of the pipes in the house except for the kitchen sink moving if I drip both the hot and cold just a little.

Here we get into the question last winter I tried to keep that pump room in the block building above freezing. Cost about $90/mo for a space heater in that room which is just crazy to me (measured off a killawatt). If the rest of the house has to drip and that water does have that slow movement anyhow do I need to keep that room above freezing? Or will I risk freezing the pressure tank? It's a fairly small one only 20g or so. Water pressure is set about 45/60 I believe so it cycles pretty often. Figure the salt in the brine tank for the water softener will keep it liquid.

If I do need to keep some heat in there I may end up getting a small vent free propane ice shack heater or something similar to see if I can do it cheaper than the electric route.

Not going to be in the place long term so I really don't want to replumb the entire place to get the pipes off of exterior walls and out of the attic. It's on a slab anyhow so not really anywhere to go with them.

 

[semipro]

I'd suggest you consider installing thermostatically controlled heat tape on components and then insulation over that rather than space heating..

 

[Lake Girl]

Judging a submersible pump? I've lived through a frozen water line and it's not pretty... the internal heat tape shorted out at -40/-50. The heat tapes are not a turn on and forget option as they can fail too. How long is the line from the well to the shop?

Even if you aren't staying long term, I would consider a re-route with pump & softener inside the house. It should be an expense that can be recouped on resale. While you considered the heat component of the shop room, how much are you wasting on frequency of pump running (not to mention longevity), more water through the softener and the hot water drip?

 

[sportbikerider78]

Do you have a basement? Is there any way to move all of your water processing below grade?

I'm on a well as well (har har) and heat nothing, because the pipe from the well enters the basement sub grade and right into my storage tank.

Maybe you have a little project cut out for you. Rent a backhoe and bury the line. That's what I'd do.

 

[Highbeam]

So the water coming up from the earth is 50 degrees. A well insulated little room doesn't need to be 70 degrees, just 40 or so. They make little freeze cube devices that are in line between the space heater and the wall plug that turn on when temp drops to 40. It will cost MUCH less to keep the little room at 40 than to keep it at 70.

I too have a little room in my detached shop with the iron filter, grit filter, and a small water heater for shop water. I use a small space heater when needed to keep it above 40 but it doesn't take much in my climate and with high insulation levels. The water flowing in the plumbing is actually a source of heat.

It is desirable for several reasons to keep this plumbing junk out in the shop vs. in the smallish house.

 

[Lake Girl]

Slab construction mentioned in first post. I'm with you sportbike, I'd be looking at a new line direct from the well to the house buried below the frost line. The peace of mind would be worth the loss of a few square feet in the house. Ease of job depends on soils...

The other trick we had our first winter was a couple of incandescent light bulbs to keep the well insulated exterior pump house warm....

 

[Aranyic]

House is on a slab and there's really no good place to move the tank and softener inside. Only place I can really come in would require pulling up a section of concrete porch to get to the edge of the house. Then drill down through the slab to bring a pipe up through it? We have a raised sub floor over the slab in that room (about 7 inches to make an old garage level to the rest of the house). Could move into the furnace room there for the pressure tank and then pop through that wall to an adjacent coat closest for the softener. Have to tear up and put back down some wood laminate in that room also. Probably more than I want to tackle this fall vs 4 months of some heat or tape in that room. If we had basement it would be a different conversation.

May try something like https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006VALDE/?tag=hearthamazon-20 and some of the pipe insulation around it.

 

[Lake Girl]

Good heat tape with good reliability. On the first water line, we had that wrapped around the pipe and insulated the with two layers of rigid styrofoam boxed around it... This was across bare rock and worked well for over 15 years.

 

[Aranyic]

So the water coming up from the earth is 50 degrees. A well insulated little room doesn't need to be 70 degrees, just 40 or so. They make little freeze cube devices that are in line between the space heater and the wall plug that turn on when temp drops to 40. It will cost MUCH less to keep the little room at 40 than to keep it at 70.

I too have a little room in my detached shop with the iron filter, grit filter, and a small water heater for shop water. I use a small space heater when needed to keep it above 40 but it doesn't take much in my climate and with high insulation levels. The water flowing in the plumbing is actually a source of heat.

It is desirable for several reasons to keep this plumbing junk out in the shop vs. in the smallish house.

If I do anything beyond tape this year it'll probably be moving things around outside and shortening the run/make it so that I can insulate 2 block walls.

Currently in the pump room the water comes into the floor; pressure tank ties in immediately; runs up a cinder block wall about 8 feet. Runs horizontal about 10 feet (at one point had a hot water heater coming off of this run) before dropping back down to the softener. The 10' run to the softener is about 3.5-4 inches from another uninsulated block wall. Then it goes back up again and 10 feet back to the cinder block wall then back down. Also housed in the area is a shower, toilet and sink I have all disconnected the water to.

There is more than enough pipe that it wouldn't cost much to remove the corners. Cut the pipes to length and then resolder it into a much shorter run just having the softener and the pressure tank on it. At the same time move stuff far enough away from the walls that I can 2x4 (or even 2x6) frame and insulate against those 2 walls that are currently just block.

 

[rustynut]

A...... buddy had a pump house at trailer on 40 acres...... he put a 100 wat bulb in it and was good all winter.... rn

 

[Lake Girl]

Incandescent light bulbs (100W or 60W) are getting harder to get all the time. Pump house mentioned above (thread #6) was pretty small 3'x5' approximately but two 60W kept it above freezing.

 

[Chas0218]

Insulate and add a small electric baseboard heater into the pump house. The smallest of heaters will have no problem keeping it warm. Are you talking about the entire line or just the pump house?

Is it plumbed from the top down? That's a little odd even if ran under the floor it shouldn't freeze unless you're crawl space is open to the air.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[firefighterjake]

The camp I lived in when I graduated from college had a well pump heated by a single incadescent light bulb . . . only issue was when either a) the bulb died in middle of the winter and my first indication was a frozen line or b) the spring melt off would drown my pump and kick off the power. I hated that pump.

 

[Highbeam]

We have chickens and the chicks need a heat lamp in one of those clamp on reflector fixture things from the feed store. The heat lamp is just a somewhat fancy light bulb that directs more radiant heat towards the chicks. The neighbor uses one of these to keep his plumbing thawed in the well building. It's in the corner of a big room so no hope of heating the room but the radiant heat of the heat lamp does the job and the clamp makes it easy to mount safely.

 

[semipro]

Out of curiosity I thought I'd calculate:
Operating at 100 watt bulb continuously for a year uses 876 kWh.

 

[Highbeam]

Out of curiosity I thought I'd calculate:
Operating at 100 watt bulb continuously for a year uses 876 kWh.

Of course not year round, but 6 months is still 438, in my area that is 43$.

Heat tape uses much less wattage and more effective since there is less loss to the surroundings.

 

[peakbagger]

There are a couple of grades of heat tape and you get what you pay for. The hardware store stuff works but may not last. There is industrial grade heat tape like Raychem which is built to last but more expensive. Commercial installs usually have an external control box that switches it on and off by the use of remote probe under the insulation. There is a failure warning contact in the controller that sets off a remote alarm if the temp drops too low. The industrial brands are usually self regulating, the tape adjusts its heat output to match the outdoor temp. Many of the tapes can be crossed over another tape (a big no/no for the hardware store type).

 

[semipro]

There are a couple of grades of heat tape and you get what you pay for. The hardware store stuff works but may not last. There is industrial grade heat tape like Raychem which is built to last but more expensive. Commercial installs usually have an external control box that switches it on and off by the use of remote probe under the insulation. There is a failure warning contact in the controller that sets off a remote alarm if the temp drops too low. The industrial brands are usually self regulating, the tape adjusts its heat output to match the outdoor temp. Many of the tapes can be crossed over another tape (a big no/no for the hardware store type).

Good to know @peakbagger. I'm working on a rainwater harvesting system with associated above- and below-ground piping and will need freeze protection.

Edit: now if I could just figure out how to energize the heat tape only when there is actually water in the pipe.

 

[fbelec]

Cheap heat tape is 7 watts per foot and good stuff is 9 watts a foot. Spray from the uninsulated walls self regulation only goes so far you could put the tape on a timer to come on at night. Or rig up a thermostat on the tape to come on when it gets cold. 90 dollars a month sounds a little steep for a 3 by 5 room

 

[Chimney Smoke]

MY parents have an old house they use as a rental property next door to them. It has an under ground pump room, concrete walls and floor with a framed and insulated tip over top. They have a big electric blanket designed for pump houses that get draped over the water tank and all lines. This is also tied into an indicator light circuit so my dad can see if the light bulb is on or off (not sure which way it's set up) that means there's an issue with the temp down there. This is in very northern Maine and they regularly see -teens F throughout the winter.

 

[maple1]

I am quite sure I would do some re-plumbing, and more insulating, even if you're not going to be there forever. In the shop room, get rid of the high spots, condense the piping, maybe add some heat tape or some small radiant pointing at pipes. Insulate. How big is the room? Should not take much to keep it above freezing if it well insulated, just with a small baseboard heater.

I think your attic piping is the main problem. I can't imagine having pipes in my attic. I would get all piping out of there. You might have to run some down low, around the bottoms of walls or something - but there has to be a better way. I'm thinking even if that small shop room isn't heated, it shouldn't freeze pipes when it is only 20f outside. Or it shouldn't take very much heat to keep things from freezing - but with it cycling like it sounds, it shouldn't freeze up. Betting attic is where most of your problem is.

 

[rwhite]

I have an 18" 120v baseboard and a thermostatic plug (38-50 deg) for the bathroom in my shop. Incandesamt bulbs can be had (rough service style). Heat tape is the other option.