Mass. Boiler Rules board meeting

[Gooserider]

As some of you may recall, there is a bit of a political battle going on in MA over the current boiler rules that require all pressurised systems to have ASME "H Stamps" on all boilers and pressure vessels - which in effect prohibits the use of "Euroboilers" since it is essentially not possible to get an ASME approval outside the US - Even for the two US made gasifiers that DO offer an ASME option, it costs about $1,000 extra.

Ironically enough, according to a paper that I got from BioHeat (and published here a while back) The ASME standard that is being used doesn't really have a direct application to wood boilers of the design we use, and the EN-303-5 standard that all Euroboilers are required to meet is actually tougher in some areas, and equivalent in all the other significant ones...

That said, I just got the following announcement from the MA DPS Boiler Rules people, announcing their next meeting - I would encourage anyone interested in doing wood boilers in MA to consider trying to attend - I am planning to...

Massachusetts
Department of Public Safety

The Board of Boiler Rules
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The Board of Boiler Rules Announces
Board Meeting in July

The Board of Boiler Rules is scheduled to meet on Thursday, July 23, 2009 at 09:30
a.m. at the National Guard Armory Wellesley, MA.


Members of the Board
Ed Kawa - Chairman/Chief of Inspections - Mechanical
Ray Archambault - Representing Operating Engineers
Ernest Hall - Representing Boiler users
Charles Perry - Representing Boiler Manufacturers
Thomas Healy - Representing Insurers of Boilers
*For more information, please visit the DPS
website.
http://www.mass.gov/dps




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Directions to the National Guard Armory, Minuteman Lane, Wellesley, MA.
Exit 20B off I-95

Traveling toward the West on Route 9, Minuteman Lane is 1800 feet from Route 128
(95)

On the right. Traveling East, make "U" turn at the lights 800 feet before Route
128. Minuteman Lane is 1200 feet toward the West.
Pull into the parking lot and enter through the side door DO NOT USE THE FRONT DOOR.
Walk straight down the hall and take a left where you see the 3 flags hanging on
the wall.
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About Department of Public Safety

The DPS is a regulatory, licensing and inspection agency, charged with the oversight
of numerous activities, businesses, and professions. Additionally, the DPS provides
administrative and legal assistance to ten different boards and commissions. Our
goal is to ensure the safety of the public and to instill confidence in the safety
of each of the regulated disciplines. As an executive agency, the Department is
managed by a Commissioner who is appointed by the Governor. The DPS reports directly
to the secretary of the Executive Office of Public Safety.
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Department of Public Safety
For any information please contact
Celeste Lam
Assistant to Chief of Inspections - Mechanical
617-727-3200 x 25224
[email protected]

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Gooserider

 

[stillconnected]

As I understand it, at this meeting, Massachusetts ruled that Tarm Boilers (and others) without th ASME stamp cannot be installed as pressurized boilers!!

I am half way through an installation and struggling with what path to take. I have a Tarm Solo PLUS 30 in my barn, ready to move into my basement and install, but not sure that I want to have a non pressurized system. The downsides as I understand them are that the boiler will degrade mor rapidly; more of a hassle of maintenance (checking water levels in th upstairs of my house); pipes going up from my basement through my living room; additional installation cost.

I am thining of selling my boiler back to Tarm or selling it on the open market. Any insights or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Hydronics]

Have you considered installing it unpressurized, after the inspector approves it install an expansion tank & pressurize it.

 

[Gooserider]

stillconnected - Yes, that is essentially what has happenned - I was at the meeting, and heard the decision... It might not be a bad thing to scream to your state legislative types, don't know if they can do anything, but it can't hurt...

IMHO the installing the system as open isn't QUITE as bad as you seem to suggest...

The Europeans use open systems quite a bit, and don't seem to have boiler degradation problems...

As long as you take steps to minimize the circulation of the expansion tank water in and out of the rest of the system (i.e. fairly narrow pipes to the tank, using a dedicated pipe with possibly a heat trap loop in it, etc.) then you shouldn't end up with more 02 in the boiler water than a closed system would have. You can minimize this even more by floating a layer of parafin oil on top of the water in the expansion tank - reduces evaporation, keeps the 02 out, etc...

While the piping to the expansion tank is usually shown as straight in piping diagrams for simplicitys sake, it need not be. You can bend the pipes around however they need to go in order for it to run up through the walls - no need to go through the middle of the living room. You really only need one or two pipes, three at max... The only one that MUST be there is obviously the pipe from the boiler to the tank. You might be able to put the fill in the basement (same setup as a closed system) and you might or might not want an over-flow / drip pan drain....

Hansson, one of our E.U. based users w/ a European open system reports that he only has to check / add water to the system once or twice a year. There are also setups one can do to allow remote tank level monitoring. (start by looking at how they do it in your car....)

Yes there will be some added install costs, but that will be at least somewhat offset by NOT having to purchase the ASME bladder tank you would need for an exposed system - the plain tank (many seem to use repurposed water heaters) is far less money....

My feeling is that while this is a totally unwarranted decision, as long as people have tall enough houses, to allow an open install it can be lived with - the only folks that are really screwed over by this are the folks w/ slab built ranches, as they can't get the needed height for the expansion tank...

Hydronics - while what you suggest would work, it is probably quite illegal... I would point out that if a person was to do that, they could have major problems if they ever tried to sell the house later, or had other inspection issues. Worse, if there was ever a fire or other claim that might be filed with a homeowners insurance company, you might have extreme difficulty getting them to pay if they have any basis to claim that the "illegal" heating system was related to the problem....

Gooserider

 

[TMonter]

which in effect prohibits the use of “Euroboilers” since it is essentially not possible to get an ASME approval outside the US - Even for the two US made gasifiers that DO offer an ASME option, it costs about $1,000 extra.

Actually it's quite easy to get an ASME approved stamp outside of the US. I can understand the hesitancy to allow anything but ASME approved as pressure systems are quite dangerous if not constructed properly.

 

[Gooserider]

which in effect prohibits the use of “Euroboilers” since it is essentially not possible to get an ASME approval outside the US - Even for the two US made gasifiers that DO offer an ASME option, it costs about $1,000 extra.

Actually it's quite easy to get an ASME approved stamp outside of the US. I can understand the hesitancy to allow anything but ASME approved as pressure systems are quite dangerous if not constructed properly.

A few points...

1. All the Euroboilers in question are built to an E.U. standard, EN 303-5, which was specifically written to deal with the design and construction of solid fuel boilers.

2. 47 states do NOT require an ASME stamp for home boilers, some don't require it for commercial boilers, the rules vary, but for the installs that we are mostly discussing, no ASME stamp on the boiler is required. - I haven't heard of any reports of unusual numbers of boiler failures in those states.... Outside the US I don't know of ANY place that requires an ASME stamp - again no significant reports of boiler failures, especially in places that are likely to be running reasonably well maintained, fairly modern equipment...

3. AFAIK, ALL states require the use of an ASME pressure relief valve on the boiler... Those valves pop at a far lower pressure than any reasonably well built boiler would have trouble with.

4. I don't know about ASME stamps on other equipment, but the ASME boiler standard REQUIRES a LIVE ASME REPRESENTATIVE be physically present during the entire construction of the boiler to witness that it was done to the standard, plus the use of ASME certified boiler steel, etc... Essentially to build a Euroboiler to ASME specs would require flying an ASME rep plus all the materials to make the boiler over, and so on down the line...

5. BioHeat has a paper by an ASME engineer comparing the ASME boiler "H-stamp" standard to the European EN 303-5 standard - I have posted it up here in the past, and I think there is a copy in the HearthWiki. Among other things it points out that the ASME standard wasn't even written to apply to the style of construction used in modern gasifiers, and wasn't specifically written for solid fuel boilers like EN-303-5 was. The bottom line was that EN 303-5 was at least a comparable, if not TOUGHER standard than ASME's...

Gooserider

 

[Hydronics]

"Outside the US I don’t know of ANY place that requires an ASME stamp"

It would not likely be used outside the US, bear in mind that the acronym is for American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

Unfortunately, the standard was probably adopted across the board without consideration of the specifics of gasifiers. It could be questioned whether the requirement is necessary for residential boilers.

 

[Gooserider]

"Outside the US I don’t know of ANY place that requires an ASME stamp"

It would not likely be used outside the US, bear in mind that the acronym is for American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

Unfortunately, the standard was probably adopted across the board without consideration of the specifics of gasifiers. It could be questioned whether the requirement is necessary for residential boilers.

Exactly - This meeting was the effort to challenge the requirement and get it changed - however the Boiler Rules Committee, made up of people that work in ASME shops, and that seemingly have strong ties to ASME were not willing to allow the acceptance of a tougher standard in this state...

Gooserider

 

[Nofossil]

This is a perfect example of the consequences of giving up freedom for safety - as Ben Franklin said, it results in neither.

At some point, there were doubtless horrible tragedies from poorly designed / built / installed boilers. As a society, we decided that we would give up the freedom to choose our boilers ourselves in exchange for a promise of increased safety from boiler explosions.

We trusted the government to protect us, and we gave government the power to limit our choices. Once power is given away, it's very hard to get it back. Rational arguments sometimes work, but more often they don't. Those who have the power have plenty of rationale to justify the status quo - some legitimate, some not so legitimate.

It takes a very brave elected or appointed official to decide that they should remove themselves from the picture. Don't hold your breath.

 

[RobC]

Some of the ASME and the development of OSHA most likely dates back to the molasses explosion and subsequent flood in Boston. In the 60ies when I went "in town" with my dad on a hot summer day you could still smell the molasses. It is also an accepted fact that the tank had a developing structural defect that was progressively worse, story accounted by a night security guard.
Here's this AM's history lesson !!

What caused the great Boston Molasses Flood?

In 1919, a 50-foot-high steel tank loomed over Boston's North End. Built by the Purity Distilling Company four years earlier, the tank could hold up to 2.5 million gallons of molasses to be used in the production of rum and industrial alcohol. At 12:40 pm on Wednesday, January 19, 1919, the tank burst, sending a gigantic wave of molasses rushing down Commercial Street through the North End, eventually covering two city blocks. Twenty-one people died in the disaster and 150 were injured.

The official investigation of the incident never conclusively determined what caused the tank to collapse. The owners contended that it was an external explosion, possibly anarchist sabotage (the alcohol distilled from the molasses was destined for use in government munitions), but few people accepted this explanation. Other theories ascribed the explosion to fermenting molasses, overfilling of the tank, or a structural defect in the tank. After much legal wrangling, the Purity Distilling Company was held liable for the damage. A Massachusetts court determined that insufficient safety inspections had played a part in the accident.

 

[Gooserider]

I'm familiar with the general history of the Molasses Flood, and agree it was a factor that may have helped with the ASME gaining influence, but could not have had anything to do with it's founding, since the ASME dates back to 1880 (see A Brief History of ASME) I also doubt that it was more than a minor factor in the creation of OSHA, since that didn't happen until the end of 1970 (Wikipedia on OSHA)

Gooserider

 

[Nofossil]

There were some pretty terrible explosions in the steam locomotive (and ship) world. When public safety conflicts with profit, even I will agree that there is a need for some standards. Otherwise, the operations that cut corners can drive the more prudent operations out of business. It's reasonable to expect that if you step on a public elevator or walk into a public building with a boiler in the basement, you aren't taking your life in your hands.

That having been said, I'm much in favor of as much flexibility as possible. Granting a legislative monopoly to a single standard and sanctioning body stifles innovation, limits competition, drives up prices, and ultimately (and often) leads to exactly the opposite result that was originally intended.

This situation is illustrative. The additional cost of the ASME requirement will result in many people staying with old, inefficient, and even dangerous systems that really should be replaced.