I built a new home and got settled in August sometime, the house is setup with 2 chimney flues 1 for the 1st floor fireplace which houses a Hampton HI300 insert and the 2nd is in the basement which I had planned to setup a woodboiler. In the process of building I thought solar would be a good idea so I installed piping and wiring from the basement to the attic and also installed an 80 gallon dual coil water storage tank I also installed a condensing boiler with Hi cap baseboard for heat and hot water, the insert does a nice job of heating the house with the exception of the master bedroom which is on the 2nd floor over the garage so my boiler doesn't run a whole lot. We are expecting a healthy tax return and will use it on either the DHW solar system or a woodboiler, but I am on the fence on which to buy first. The woodboiler would save me on gas for my heating and water needs but would be a PIA come summer to keep feeding a fire, the solar DHW should handle a big part of the load in the winter and all in the summer without burning any fossil fuels. Looking for pro's and con's suggestions.
most bang for the buck
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sgschwend
New Member
I am a left coaster but if I could get solar to work here I would do that. Holy Cow a quite, minimal moving parts, no feeding solution! If you can get one to work I would do that. I assume there would be a decent payback.
I think both are great ideas and it sounds like you have planned ahead. Do you have access to cheap/free wood? If not I wood go for the solar first but you should
look at the payback period. Do whichever has the shortest payback. You already have an insert to supplement your gas so I think solar will be the way to go and
add the wood boiler later.
Kris
look at the payback period. Do whichever has the shortest payback. You already have an insert to supplement your gas so I think solar will be the way to go and
add the wood boiler later.
Kris
Try one of the solar simulation programs to show payback, output and ROI. www.valentin.de has this free simple calc, but not a lot of location choices.
RETscreen.net is a place where you can download, or use a free simulation software.
F-Chart, T-Sol, Polysun are a few others. Most have a free trial version at their sites to run a one time calc.
Check at www.dsire.org to see what rebate programs are available in your area.
You will need to know your heatload numbers to run accurate heating simulations.
hr
RETscreen.net is a place where you can download, or use a free simulation software.
F-Chart, T-Sol, Polysun are a few others. Most have a free trial version at their sites to run a one time calc.
Check at www.dsire.org to see what rebate programs are available in your area.
You will need to know your heatload numbers to run accurate heating simulations.
hr
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Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
In my never-so-humble opinion, wood boilers and solar DHW complement each other perfectly. I went with a very low-tech / low cost solar DHW approach that works fine during the summer. I drain my solar panels and use the wood boiler for DHW (and my hot tub) during the winter.
I figured solar was going to get the nod, I got a quote for 12k to install it and that was without the piping and wiring and tank I already installed :-( I don't mind doing the work myself but have zero experience with this stuff and if I am going to invest a lot of money into it has to work right or I will get CRANKY. I guess I need to get this all figured out with exactly what I need and start collecting the pieces. Is it a nono to install the panels before the system will be functional?? I was thinking I could get them and install on the roof before snow flies.
Solar does work year 'round. And it doesn't need to be a bright sunny day. You want about a 50% solar fraction, the design programs will show the SF for all months of the year. Many areas see 80% SF in summer months, it may drop to 20% or less in winter. Across the 12 months 50% is do-able in most areas.
Plan on solar for DHW pre-heat in the cold months, possibly 100% SF in warm sunny months.
Contractors I know shoot for about a 30% SF when looking at heating loads, beyond that the $$ gets too large. And that's in the sunny SW.
Go for the low hanging fruit first. A 3 collector or tube array with an 80 gallon tank should work well in your area state. Not sure about current rebates, but with a 12K installed price and the federal, state, and other incentives, amounting to a 40- 50% cost reduction, the payback should be 10 years or less. That is at todays fuel costs. A quality system should go 20, 30 years or more. That's not a bad investment.
hr
Plan on solar for DHW pre-heat in the cold months, possibly 100% SF in warm sunny months.
Contractors I know shoot for about a 30% SF when looking at heating loads, beyond that the $$ gets too large. And that's in the sunny SW.
Go for the low hanging fruit first. A 3 collector or tube array with an 80 gallon tank should work well in your area state. Not sure about current rebates, but with a 12K installed price and the federal, state, and other incentives, amounting to a 40- 50% cost reduction, the payback should be 10 years or less. That is at todays fuel costs. A quality system should go 20, 30 years or more. That's not a bad investment.
hr
DBoon
Minister of Fire
If Return on Investment if your only criteria, you may find that there are other areas that offer more opportunity for a better payback, especially given that you have a (natural) gas condensing heater already. You indicated that your house is new, but if it is short on insulation anywhere, or has "relatively" uninsulated windows, then beefing up the insulation or adding insulating window shades may be the right first step.
But, based on everything you already mentioned, it seems that you've thought this through pretty well already. If you are truly what your name says (luv2burnwood)
then your decision seems obvious.
But, based on everything you already mentioned, it seems that you've thought this through pretty well already. If you are truly what your name says (luv2burnwood)
then your decision seems obvious.
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
I found that the amount of usable solar energy in the winter in New England was so low that it made no sense to try and use it to heat hot water. You have to go with a much more complicated and expensive installation - four or five times the collector area, antifreeze or drainback or evacuated collectors, snow removal issues, much worse shade problems from trees, and the cursed sun doesn't shine much anyway.
During the winter, I have a wood boiler going so hot water is free. shoulder seasons are the only issue, and it only ends up being a couple of weeks per year where solar doesn't work and I'm not burning wood either.
During the winter, I have a wood boiler going so hot water is free. shoulder seasons are the only issue, and it only ends up being a couple of weeks per year where solar doesn't work and I'm not burning wood either.
I can live with burning propane for a couple months out of the year to heat the water W/O being wild. I think the cats meow will be when I can get the solar and woodboiler and insert working together My home is insulated pretty good, I went as far as spray foaming all gaps, cracks, up across and down the 2x6 studs on all exterior walls, also hit any crack, voids, etc in the basement. Used insulating gaskets behind the electrical boxes on all outside walls, doubled up the attic r-19 Insulated the rim joist between the 1st and 2nd floor, my house is a Cape so I insulated the ceiling on the first floor 4' back toward the centerline to meet the knee wall on the second floor and used rigid foam and wall insulation on the knee wall. The only place I am lacking is on the basement ceiling and I am in the process of putting R-19 to cover that. Using enviro friendly methods in the home sure is pricey, you would think our govt would get there heads out of the sand and offer substantial breaks for investing in this, I am sure most people would much rather buy a new truck or go on vacation with the large amounts of dough dropped on solar, woodboilers, etc.
My home is insulated pretty good, I went as far as spray foaming all gaps, cracks, up across and down the 2x6 studs on all exterior walls, also hit any crack, voids, etc in the basement. Used insulating gaskets behind the electrical boxes on all outside walls, doubled up the attic r-19 Insulated the rim joist between the 1st and 2nd floor, my house is a Cape so I insulated the ceiling on the first floor 4' back toward the centerline to meet the knee wall on the second floor and used rigid foam and wall insulation on the knee wall. The only place I am lacking is on the basement ceiling and I am in the process of putting R-19 to cover that. Using enviro friendly methods in the home sure is pricey, you would think our govt would get there heads out of the sand and offer substantial breaks for investing in this, I am sure most people would much rather buy a new truck or go on vacation with the large amounts of dough dropped on solar, woodboilers, etc.The big plus for solar is that if you install it right,you can shut down the boiler from about late April to September and run straight off solar. This cuts down on standby loss that a boiler would require. The trick is to install the panels at 30 degrees of tilt so that during the summer they dont have a lot of surface area but in the spring and fall, they have more surface area and in the winter they have maximum surface area, plus a far lower likelyhood of snow buildup. If you go with flat plate collectors the comments regarding them being only useful for preheat in the winter are correct. Evacuated tubes can still put out very hot water in the winter, but have theri issuers with snow buildup and lower efficiency. Even with flat plates, I had 140 degrees coming off my panels yesterday (Mpv 22nd), granted it was a warm day, but it did raise my storage temp 20 degrees. In the winter when the boiler is actively running, the extra hot water heating load is a small percentage of the household heat so its less of an overall efficiency hit.
Whatever you do, keep an eye on incentives in Maine and make sure you read and follow the directions before you pull the trigger.
Whatever you do, keep an eye on incentives in Maine and make sure you read and follow the directions before you pull the trigger.
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
Just to put it in perspective: On the very best day in the summer, with optimum sun angles and no shade on the panels, I get about 100,000 BTU per day out of my solar panels - much more than I need for DHW.
By late September, I'm lucky to get 20,000 BTU per day, and that's when the sun is shining - not all that often.
In comparison, my little bitty wood boiler puts out 80,000 BTU in an hour of operation at full output.
Choice #1: Build a large, high-tech, expensive solar installation that can operate during the winter. If I do that, it will save me a log or two in the wood boiler on sunny days.
Choice #2: Build a small, simple, cheap solar DHW panel to heat my DHW from May 1st through October 1st. Burn 10 or so gallons of fossil fuel per year to make up the shortfall in May and September. Heat DHW with wood during wood heating season.
I just don't see the benefit of 4-season solar DHW in houses that have wood boilers. Even if it's 'green' and there are tax incentives, it seems like a waste of resources that could yield far more benefits if spent on other things.
Just being cynical today.....
By late September, I'm lucky to get 20,000 BTU per day, and that's when the sun is shining - not all that often.
In comparison, my little bitty wood boiler puts out 80,000 BTU in an hour of operation at full output.
Choice #1: Build a large, high-tech, expensive solar installation that can operate during the winter. If I do that, it will save me a log or two in the wood boiler on sunny days.
Choice #2: Build a small, simple, cheap solar DHW panel to heat my DHW from May 1st through October 1st. Burn 10 or so gallons of fossil fuel per year to make up the shortfall in May and September. Heat DHW with wood during wood heating season.
I just don't see the benefit of 4-season solar DHW in houses that have wood boilers. Even if it's 'green' and there are tax incentives, it seems like a waste of resources that could yield far more benefits if spent on other things.
Just being cynical today.....
Chris Hoskin
TarmSalesGuy
I am a bit surprised that most on this thread seem to be advocating for the solar option.......strikes right at the heart of the wood boiler industry's marketing challenge as I see it. How do we get consumers to consider a wood boiler on equal footing with wind/solar/geothermal? Here we have someone with the handle "luv2burnwood" and it seems he is leaning towards solar. I am puzzled.
There is a LOT of math that can be done around this decision, but to me a pretty basic formula sums it up: You can spend about $15k on solar and produce somewhere between 50% and 100% of your domestic hot water needs for the year (unless you have a grossly oversized array and a super insulated home with radiant floor heat, you cannot expect to do ANY space heating in the mid-Winter in MAINE).
Or, you can spend $25k (or less if you are handy) on a high efficiency wood boiler with storage and produce 100% of your space heating and domestic hot water needs for the year. The question was "bang for the buck" - seems obvious to me. (Yes, I have a bias and yes, I recognize that the wood boiler option requires a lot of labor that the solar doesn't).
I am a big fan of solar and agree that a combination of solar thermal and a wood boiler with storage is the ultimate home energy system, however, if the questions is which option to do FIRST, then the wood boiler has to be it. We have many customers who choose the un-pressurized tank option because they plan to incorporate solar thermal in the future......very often the solar thermal never comes because all you are avoiding at that point is firing your wood boiler once or twice a week in the Summer.
There, now that I've settled that, this thread can end because no one will have any more to say on the matter......ha! Looking forward to the discussion.
Chris
There is a LOT of math that can be done around this decision, but to me a pretty basic formula sums it up: You can spend about $15k on solar and produce somewhere between 50% and 100% of your domestic hot water needs for the year (unless you have a grossly oversized array and a super insulated home with radiant floor heat, you cannot expect to do ANY space heating in the mid-Winter in MAINE).
Or, you can spend $25k (or less if you are handy) on a high efficiency wood boiler with storage and produce 100% of your space heating and domestic hot water needs for the year. The question was "bang for the buck" - seems obvious to me. (Yes, I have a bias
and yes, I recognize that the wood boiler option requires a lot of labor that the solar doesn't).I am a big fan of solar and agree that a combination of solar thermal and a wood boiler with storage is the ultimate home energy system, however, if the questions is which option to do FIRST, then the wood boiler has to be it. We have many customers who choose the un-pressurized tank option because they plan to incorporate solar thermal in the future......very often the solar thermal never comes because all you are avoiding at that point is firing your wood boiler once or twice a week in the Summer.
There, now that I've settled that, this thread can end because no one will have any more to say on the matter......ha!
Looking forward to the discussion.Chris
I've always felt burning wood IS using solar energy.
Sounds like a Steven Wright punchline but my solar collector is my 56 acre hardwood lot.
Sounds like a Steven Wright punchline but my solar collector is my 56 acre hardwood lot.
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
A post from elsewhere....
So we've been heating our hot water by exposing absorbent panels to the radiation from an unshielded nuclear reactor. It's dangerous - the radiation is known to cause severe burns as well as cancer. However, it's less expensive than other safer methods, so that's what we're doing.
We use the same technique for drying our clothes. The radiation does bleach out the colors and weaken the fabric over time. Many places ban this approach to clothes drying, but we are in a rural area and no one cares.
So we've been heating our hot water by exposing absorbent panels to the radiation from an unshielded nuclear reactor. It's dangerous - the radiation is known to cause severe burns as well as cancer. However, it's less expensive than other safer methods, so that's what we're doing.
We use the same technique for drying our clothes. The radiation does bleach out the colors and weaken the fabric over time. Many places ban this approach to clothes drying, but we are in a rural area and no one cares.
BHSG A couple things about my scenario I would like to reiterate on # 1 I do have the tank,piping and wiring setup for the solar. #2 after next season I do have to start buying wood yes I luv2burnwood but it won't be free (the sun is). There arent any tree's left on my lot :-0 LOL non of this stuff is really affordable for most people IMHO I think if prices came down quite a bit more people would jump on the wood furnace/solar energy options. heck I will be driving a 2001 Dakota for another few years because I would rather have an alterative energy source
For me and I would presume for most, economics are the driving factor in the end when purchasing and installing heating products. I do enjoy cutting wood, I would enjoy it more if I had more spare time though.... I like the environmental and local economic benefits also. I got some used flat plate panels from a school which I plan to install for summer domestic water.
Personally If I couldn't do the work myself and had to spend $25 thousand on a wood boiler system I'd have a really hard time justifying it.
Personally If I couldn't do the work myself and had to spend $25 thousand on a wood boiler system I'd have a really hard time justifying it.
For about $1,500 dollars materials (for two 3 x 8 panels) minus 30% fed rebate and most likely an upcoming state of Maine rebate, the solar system can be put on line and most likely save 1 gallon per day of oil during the 5 months of the year (mid April to Mid September) when a standard boiler would be running to supply hot water, plus a 40 to 50 degree preheat of incoming water for the majority of the rest of the year, seems to have a pretty good payback. Plus that any money spent in the short term is not wasted if a new wood boiler is installed is also a plus.
I'm in the hydronic and solar business, so I don't really have a bias. Typical members here tend to by DIYers or at least able to do a portion of the install. There are plenty of solar packages on the market that can be purchased for $5,000.00 some much less, depending on components, country of origin, and quality
In some states currently the rebates and incentives add up to 50% of the installed price. So a 12K system may end up more in the 6K actual cost, range. I don't know that you can get 1/2 of a 25K wood boiler installation rebated?
So with a 5 k price tag owner installed system , then deduct tax incentives or rebates, the payback and investment starts to look pretty good. Considering a quality system can and do last 30 years. Very little if any service work required on solar thermal, and very simple to troubleshoot. Certainly not a replacement for a heating system, 100% SF (solar fraction) systems for heat and SDHW get pretty large and $$. You may not have enough roof.
Here is a calculator that can guide you along the solar path.
www.solar-estimate.org/oemestimator?oemid=545
hr
In some states currently the rebates and incentives add up to 50% of the installed price. So a 12K system may end up more in the 6K actual cost, range. I don't know that you can get 1/2 of a 25K wood boiler installation rebated?
So with a 5 k price tag owner installed system , then deduct tax incentives or rebates, the payback and investment starts to look pretty good. Considering a quality system can and do last 30 years. Very little if any service work required on solar thermal, and very simple to troubleshoot. Certainly not a replacement for a heating system, 100% SF (solar fraction) systems for heat and SDHW get pretty large and $$. You may not have enough roof.
Here is a calculator that can guide you along the solar path.
www.solar-estimate.org/oemestimator?oemid=545
hr
in hot water said:I'm in the hydronic and solar business, so I don't really have a bias. Typical members here tend to by DIYers or at least able to do a portion of the install. There are plenty of solar packages on the market that can be purchased for $5,000.00 some much less, depending on components, country of origin, and quality
In some states currently the rebates and incentives add up to 50% of the installed price. So a 12K system may end up more in the 6K actual cost, range. I don't know that you can get 1/2 of a 25K wood boiler installation rebated?
So with a 5 k price tag owner installed system , then deduct tax incentives or rebates, the payback and investment starts to look pretty good. Considering a quality system can and do last 30 years. Very little if any service work required on solar thermal, and very simple to troubleshoot. Certainly not a replacement for a heating system, 100% SF (solar fraction) systems for heat and SDHW get pretty large and $$. You may not have enough roof.
Here is a calculator that can guide you along the solar path.
www.solar-estimate.org/oemestimator?oemid=545
hr
Great link Thank you!
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