Mt Vernon Insert Thermocouple

[njpain]

I have a ? 6-7 year old Mt. Vernon Insert. In the time I have had it I have replaced the igniter twice and the thermocouple three times. I am now again experiencing the stove stuck in startup, I see glow of igniter ( and feel heat ). pellets feed but no ignition. Each time I have replaced the thermocouple I have made certain that the tip touches the inside of the ceramic cover and that the wires are routed properly. I have a few questions:

1. Do you agree that this sounds like a TC problem?
2. Should I need to replace the darn TC every two years?
3. Pardon me for what are probably dumb questions. In my prior three experiences I removed the side panels and the ash box. I then needed to use a mirror and feel to get the TC in. Routing the wire around the back of the unit and plugging into the board was a real struggle as I really could no see what I was doing. The last time I tried to see if I could slide the insert out a bit to get better access to at least the board but the unit would not move at all.
a. Are there any tricks to doing this or is the struggle mandatory?
b. What am I doing wrong; why can't I get the insert to slide or pivot out at all?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[kappel15]

With what little info you supplied, it doesn't sound like a tc problem. Use a small mirror and a flashlight and look in bottom of pot, at igniter slit. Make sure there isn't any debris plugging the slit, stopping ignition. Are you getting any error codes? When you plugged tc in, did you plug it in correctly? An insert should move some, unless it was mounted in. And yes, it is a pain to get at things. Stay in touch. kap

 

[njpain]

That was it!! I cleaned out the debris. It went through an auto-clean cycle and it fired right up. Thank so much. You saved me a great deal of heartache and unnecessary expense.
With regard to the insert not moving, when you say "mounted" do you mean bolted or in some other way anchored in? If so, where should I be looking for anchoring points?

Thanks again

 

[kappel15]

It is not standard to mount an insert. I would look for a lip or something that it might be stuck on. They are suppose to move. Maybe a little more elbow grease. Carefully. And it pays to periodically clean the firepot. Making sure the slit and holes are clean of debris. And hopefully you still have the other tc's as they might be good. kap

 

[Lake Girl]

Not aiming to start a brand war here but rails can be bought for the Harman inserts so that servicing can be done easier. Anything similar for the Quadrafires? I do recall seeing threads on the forum about wood or steel rails fabricated too ... depends on amount of clearance under the unit and how much play is in the connection to the liner I guess. Try a forum search to see if you can come up with some ideas that will make your life easier...

 

[kappel15]

Not aiming to start a brand war here but rails can be bought for the Harman inserts so that servicing can be done easier. Anything similar for the Quadrafires? I do recall seeing threads on the forum about wood or steel rails fabricated too ... depends on amount of clearance under the unit and how much play is in the connection to the liner I guess. Try a forum search to see if you can come up with some ideas that will make your life easier...

If I were king, all inserts would be on rails, for easier cleaning and service. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

Hello, I am new here but have a Mt Vernon AE insert pellet stove. It was here when I purchased Home. I am learning that the unit is now 10 yrs old and had never been serviced by the initial company purchased from. I unfortunately am a widow and am not super familiar with pellet inserts. Used to self feeding coal stoves . I was having problems with getting the wall unit working and thought it needed replacement as it had gone blank at the end of the season last year. I purchased that unit, an igniter and thermocouple as a package from Amazon. Then I call the original company of purchase to come and do a service call or cleaning. I decided on the cleaning call as they told me if I needed parts they would fix it then.
Well I have 3 service calls required and it seems like every time they fix something it will run for a week and then I have another problem. I am sure that I should have purchased a different insert by now as it has cost me plenty and it is just under $200 for a service call to come to look. The first service cleaning call the guy said the stove was already pretty clean. I had him install the new wall unit which worked well, he said that the igniter should be replaced so he did, I asked him about the auto clean and springs as it seemed to me that they were sagging and loose. He told me they were fine! He had to replace a gasket on fire pot but was told all good. That lasted a week and then the stove would again not operate. They came back (different tech) said I absolutely needed to have new auto clean parts.

They replaced those parts and he said he was trying very hard not to ruin the thermocouple which wasn’t replaced yet. I told hi, I had the part if he did. Well, he was going to charge me all outdoors to put it in at that time. But the stove ran for about another week before I go an auger jam message. I tried to clean that out. Got it to run for half a day and then message returned. I felt that the motor itself must have gone bad. Called service again and asked them to be sure to bring a motor. I have electric heat but it just doesn’t do the job for winter. They came back and after ‘testing’ it for about 45 mins yes, in fact I needed new motor. (Big surprise seeing as I have to pay the, for an hours work anyway.). I asked ok I know the stove is old but I have re-laced so many parts already. What else could possibly go wrong with it...... did I tell you I was Polish, or that I should have blond hair?

He said the thermocouple, or the blower motors. Well it has been just over a week and I now again have no working stove. It just keeps going through the start up stages never fires and just dumps unburned pellets into the ash Pan. It doesn’t give me an error code or anything so, I am g that it is the thermocouple?
‘I decided to clean out the whole stove again. I found ash build up in the pan overflowing on the right side of pan and unburned pellets on the left. When I emptied it out there was a melted looking piece of clinker in the middle of pan under all the ash. There was an overflow of ash under the pan so I am assuming that something went wrong besides the fact I did not appear to clean the pan soon enough.
‘I considered trying to replace the tc myself but could not find a instruction video on how to re-lace it. I took the side panel off and followed the wires from it but they go way behind the stove and I can’t see where the clip ends attached. I tried taking the mantle piece off and pull the stove out but that wasn’t going to happen. I took the ash pan out to see if it was attached in some manner that I could not see as I need to see how it feed through the side of the stove. They are closed for the holidays, I am freezing as the electric heat doesn’t quite cut it, I am feeling that they are really taking advantage of me. Btw, after they replaced the springs the stove was so squeaky and loud when it operated. When they came to fix the auger motor he did something that he obviously didn’t do (grease it?) but it was silent for about a week..... that seems to be a pattern.

i am wondering if anyone could just tell me what they think is the real problem so I can try to reset this myself if possible. ??? Thank you for your patience and any help!

 

[kappel15]

Hello and welcome to the forum. If you are not getting any fire at all, you need to look and see if igniter is getting red hot at all. You can usually look for a slit inside door, you can see the burner thru, or pull ashpan and look. If not, then you need to check wire connections on right side where it hooks to wire harness. You will also need to check and see if the ran the wires up in the slot, away from auto-clean asy. so they don't get rubbed and shorted out. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

Hello and welcome to the forum. If you are not getting any fire at all, you need to look and see if igniter is getting red hot at all. You can usually look for a slit inside door, you can see the burner thru, or pull ashpan and look. If not, then you need to check wire connections on right side where it hooks to wire harness. You will also need to check and see if the ran the wires up in the slot, away from auto-clean asy. so they don't get rubbed and shorted out. kap

Thank you so much as you are totally correct! After watching a few more YouTube videos I decided to check igniter! Nothing! Thank goodness I had another one handy! Changed it and it started right up!!
But, alas, I do believe now that the tc is gone as I have a new error message that it missed ignite. I hate to seem paranoid but I swear that every time they come to fix one thing they set up a failure of something else! Really miss coal stove bug not the soot! . So, I guess after reading the previous posts I will try again to pull stove out some to get to the connection spot for the tc. It was a great idea to use a mirror under the spam area to see. I understand that they can be fragile but I do have one so I may as well try to fix it. If I can't I will have to pay another 200 to have them walk through the door! . But it would be nice if one of you experienced tech guys could make a YouTube video on how to replace one Makes the rest of us rookies dangerous!? Thanks for your reply and help! Hope 2020 will be a blessed year for all! I will be putting this unit up for sale

 

[kappel15]

Not so fast on replacing that tc. You would get a tc error if it was bad. You might have just missed getting a fire fast enough. How long did fire go? Check and make sure the firepot tc is touching the inside end of the cover, or it won't read correctly. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

Thank you so much as you are totally correct! After watching a few more YouTube videos I decided to check igniter! Nothing! Thank goodness I had another one handy! Changed it and it started right up!!
But, alas, I do believe now that the tc is gone as I have a new error message that it missed ignite. I hate to seem paranoid but I swear that every time they come to fix one thing they set up a failure of something else! Really miss coal stove bug not the soot! . So, I guess after reading the previous posts I will try again to pull stove out some to get to the connection spot for the tc. It was a great idea to use a mirror under the spam area to see. I understand that they can be fragile but I do have one so I may as well try to fix it. If I can't I will have to pay another 200 to have them walk through the door! . But it would be nice if one of you experienced tech guys could make a YouTube video on how to replace one Makes the rest of us rookies dangerous!? Thanks for your reply and help! Hope 2020 will be a blessed year for all! I will be putting this unit up for sale

Ok, another igniter appears to have bitten the dust?? Why? It has been seemingly burning very hot? Bad tc causing igniter to ov

 

[Kaleardi]

Thank you again for your reply! However, it is again a bad igniter! Apparently there is a problem and they have designed a new one for pellets with less voltage so it doesn't burn out so fast. I also learned that the have a redesigned fire pot with larger holes so more air can circulate and prevent over heating the igniter! The best part was that I learned that I could use fire gel and start the stove manually. The problem is only that it doesn't auto clean cycle etc. however, the pellets are almost completely consumed Hardly any ash left and it runs until the hopper is empty! I will be doing this until the new fire pot and new igniter arrive, they also put in a new gasket for easy installation.

 

[kappel15]

You could have made the firepot improvements yourself. All it is, is two drilled holes in igniter housing and a slot cut in it, to allow more airflow. And igniters don't go that fast, no matter how hot things are. When you install the igniter, are you running the wires up in the wire hanger slot, to keep them away from the auto-clean? If not, it rubs a spot in the wires and shorts the igniter out. Yes, they came out with a 300 wat igniter for pellets only, to try and prolong the life of igniters. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

Hmm well, I would stop have to replace the gallery if I did try to drill it myself but good to know! I have to tell you though, it is pretty impressive to see hope little ash remains when it burns manually! Good to know that it is almost totally consumed for heat! Well, I am sure that when I get the parts in and try to attempt to change it out, I may be looking for more advice!! Thank you for your help!

 

[Kaleardi]

Btw, yes, I too used a mirror to see where the old wires went through so as not to get tangled in the auto clean mechanism . TY

 

[Kaleardi]

Btw, yes, I too used a mirror to see where the old wires went through so as not to get tangled in the auto clean mechanism . TY

Also, have a another question as stove went out last night before hopper emptied. Noticed that I had big clinkers in ash pan and unburnt pellets. When I took a look at the fire pot I can see that it appears to have hardened black residue that does not want to scrap off. Thinking this may be due to lack of cleaning for two previous years of use. I am wondering if there is a way to clean it out completely as when I replace it I don't want it to happen to the new fire pot and am wondering if this has been my problem all along as it appears to be thicker by the holes. It doesn't break off easily and it looks to be diminishing the air flow? Is it some form of creosote from the pellets. Is there a way to clean it before it gets built up like that? Is that normal? I even tried to chip it out but it is pretty hardened on the bottom of fire pot plate?? Not sure it is 10yrs worth of build up or just two as I didn't know how to clean it completely?

 

[Kaleardi]

Also wondering about the noise that I hear from time to time from the stove while burning? Sounds kinda like a reverberation of some sort. Gets pretty loud at times and I had heard it before igniter went 1st and second time.? I have set on manual with highest heat out put with flame at plus three. Downdraft? Hollow sounding?
last night when stove went out before hopper empty I had turned down output to 3 and put flame height to 0 thinking it may be burning too hot? Actually stove shutdown before hitting room temp and auto cleaned and was even able to restart itself? Thinking the fire pot must have stayed hot enough to reignite fresh pellets on its own? Did it again today also! Does it have something to do with the air holes in fire pot ?? Rather not burn the place down just to have pellet heat?? any ideas?

 

[kappel15]

If it relit itself, the igniter is working. And one thing I want to ask is when you buy igniters, are you sure you are getting OEM igniters? Read of some folks ordering igniters and getting different looking ones that didn't last long at all. One thing you can do to burn off creosote on pot floor is to burn a mix of corn and pellets. It will clean it off nicely. And that freight train sound usually comes from too much fuel, blocking air flow. When my pot gets too full of ash on my Santa Fe, it sounds like a freight train rumbling by, till it burns off enough fuel. And depending on what heat output you have the stove on, it will only run x amount of time, and then automatically do an auto clean, and then restart if temp has not been reached. You need to download an owners manual so you understand the running of this stove. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

If it relit itself, the igniter is working. And one thing I want to ask is when you buy igniters, are you sure you are getting OEM igniters? Read of some folks ordering igniters and getting different looking ones that didn't last long at all. One thing you can do to burn off creosote on pot floor is to burn a mix of corn and pellets. It will clean it off nicely. And that freight train sound usually comes from too much fuel, blocking air flow. When my pot gets too full of ash on my Santa Fe, it sounds like a freight train rumbling by, till it burns off enough fuel. And depending on what heat output you have the stove on, it will only run x amount of time, and then automatically do an auto clean, and then restart if temp has not been reached. You need to download an owners manual so you understand the running of this stove. kap

Once again thank you for a response! No igniter is not working as when stove reached temp it shuts down and won't relite. I believe that I may have been correct about the fire pot being so hot that once cleaned it would refill and ignite from the heat of fire pot. This would also be an explanation for the loud sounds from too much fuel in pot! I tried using a whole lot less pellets to hand start and so far have not heard the sound.
I also tried many local pellet providers and told that no one appears to carry corn fuels in this area anymore. I have been using Cubex pellets and was suggested to try premium soft wood pellet. Not sure what the consensus is on pellet types. The guy I bought condo from said cubbed was best heat and low ash.
i am trying again today to see if starting with a smaller amount of pellets was part of my problem, if some is good more is better -not! I was informed that the service company I used for service the last three times is probably the most expensive provider out there. I have a new name, someone who divorced a relative of the first company. Will see how that goes..... I still have a little over a ton of pellets left, if I can continue to use it as is or if replacing those parts help at all when I am done I will probably just give up and use the electric. Then probably move to a warmer area!
thank you again for your recommendations! Actually, the stove itself must be feeding too much fuel as it is blazing. I just had a new auger motor put in, is there some adjustments that should have been made when they replaced it!? Have a great 2020!

 

[kappel15]

The pot can not be hot enough to restart pellets. No way. Go to you wall control. Go to menu. Scroll down to user settings. The flame height adjustment is your feed rate. It goes from +5 to -5. See where you are at and go lower. Also see what fuel table you are on. You have the option of hard wood or utility pellet. IF you are near country and know a farmer, you could get some corn from him. Would only take a half a hopper to clean. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

The pot can not be hot enough to restart pellets. No way. Go to you wall control. Go to menu. Scroll down to user settings. The flame height adjustment is your feed rate. It goes from +5 to -5. See where you are at and go lower. Also see what fuel table you are on. You have the option of hard wood or utility pellet. IF you are near country and know a farmer, you could get some corn from him. Would only take a half a hopper to clean. kap

So hmm, it did relight on several occasions but perhaps the old igniter itself got red hot?? The auto clean cycled through, perhaps holes were blocked up for it to shutdown like that? But when reached temp in the room it would shutdown and be off for awhile before it would try to restart, even though heat dif is set at .5 degree.
yes, burning under manual mode with output of 5, lowered to 3, the flame adjustment was set at +3, I also adjusted down the heat calibration so it would stay running longer. I do have the manual downloaded but it never tells you what the user settings should be set at. I don't know what the factory settings were as it was already 8 yrs old when I inherited it with the home. I have to say it did burn for two years without much troubledo I really can't complain. I would expect something to have gotten to point of replacement but I guess I wasn't prepared for the intense cost for service and out the parts as they up charge almost double the retail cost. That is why I tried Amazon.

 

[Kaleardi]

So hmm, it did relight on several occasions but perhaps the old igniter itself got red hot?? The auto clean cycled through, perhaps holes were blocked up for it to shutdown like that? But when reached temp in the room it would shutdown and be off for awhile before it would try to restart, even though heat dif is set at .5 degree.
yes, burning under manual mode with output of 5, lowered to 3, the flame adjustment was set at +3, I also adjusted down the heat calibration so it would stay running longer. I do have the manual downloaded but it never tells you what the user settings should be set at. I don't know what the factory settings were as it was already 8 yrs old when I inherited it with the home. I have to say it did burn for two years without much troubledo I really can't complain. I would expect something to have gotten to point of replacement but I guess I wasn't prepared for the intense cost for service and out the parts as they up charge almost double the retail cost. That is why I tried Amazon.

Ok if that is the case then I definitely need to lower the flame height to 0 or lower......

 

[kappel15]

You set heat output at how much heat you want and need. The higher the setting, the hotter it is, but also the faster it does an automatic auto clean. On high setting, corn fuel table, the auto clean will activate every 2.4 hours, if temp not reached. Utility pellet setting will clean every 1.2 hours, softwood every 3.2 hours, hardwood pellet setting, every 2.1 hours. With the downloaded manual, you can now set your flame height/ feed adjustment, per the manual.kap

 

[kappel15]

And service people should have set everything for you when they were there. Sounds like a not too good of a place that has been taking advantage. kap

 

[Kaleardi]

And service people should have set everything for you when they were there. Sounds like a not too good of a place that has been taking advantage. kap

Thank you again! By lowering the flame height to -1, the heat out put to 3 (med) it has been running steady and without any howling! Good to know about the auto cleaning schedule. It is set on hardwood pellets. I am wondering if I would be able to find corn feed at the tractor supply store? Would that be sufficient? I saw corn cobs and regular corn kernels (popcorn making in the stove?? ) I wonder if a bag of biofuel from the camping section would work? The plaque on pot is pretty hardened. I am still waiting for the new one to arrive with gasket and new igniter.
It must have reached the auto clean cycle as the fire is in shutdown mode as I type but it did run continuously for a couple of hours very close to reaching the programmed temp also. I suspect as it is now getting dark inside the fire box that it will just stay out until I restart it again. Not burning as hot as previous settings has allowed it to.
Yes, the company that I was referred to for service appears to have a reputation of price gouging I have now learned. Profit is the ultimate goal and don't think they have a lot of competition. Thank you again! Getting there step by step