New Boiler Install

[rizzon1]

Hey All,
I'm researching wood boiler options for a new 2,500 sq ft home. its well insulated and I am primarily using the heated water in a concrete radiant floor, the boiler will be located inside the house. I want the most efficient boiler possible but I do not have unlimited space. I like the concept of the Garn and I think its based on solid science but once again I do not have the space. what's everyone's opinion on other boilers on the market? is there one that stands out above the rest?

 

[hobbyheater]

Hey All,
I'm researching wood boiler options for a new 2,500 sq ft home. its well insulated and I am primarily using the heated water in a concrete radiant floor, the boiler will be located inside the house. I want the most efficient boiler possible but I do not have unlimited space. I like the concept of the Garn and I think its based on solid science but once again I do not have the space. what's everyone's opinion on other boilers on the market? is there one that stands out above the rest?

http://www.walltherm.ca/
Just an idea.

 

[JohnDolz]

Hey All,
I'm researching wood boiler options for a new 2,500 sq ft home. its well insulated and I am primarily using the heated water in a concrete radiant floor, the boiler will be located inside the house. I want the most efficient boiler possible but I do not have unlimited space. I like the concept of the Garn and I think its based on solid science but once again I do not have the space. what's everyone's opinion on other boilers on the market? is there one that stands out above the rest?

I've posted way too much so want to be careful not to be a constant cheerleader but since you asked I love my Effecta and based on what I know today could not ask for any additional features.

 

[rizzon1]

http://www.walltherm.ca/
Just an idea.

that's nice and if I had known they exist I probably would have set it up differently but I do have a mechanical room and would probably be better off buying something that is designed for just utility and performance rather than looks, that is if there's something out there that preforms better for less?

 

[stee6043]

Do you have a budget? And do you have an idea of your heat load? You may not get a lot of responses with it being so open ended right now. There are 25kw-80kw boilers and $5k-$20k boilers. They all heat water...but have different strengths and weaknesses depending on application.

And welcome to the forum!

 

[stee6043]

One tip too - any boiler sales person that tells you they can size a boiler for you based solely on square footage should likely not be trusted. Just in case you run into one of those along your way....

 

[rizzon1]

Do you have a budget? And do you have an idea of your heat load? You may not get a lot of responses with it being so open ended right now. There are 25kw-80kw boilers and $5k-$20k boilers. They all heat water...but have different strengths and weaknesses depending on application.

And welcome to the forum!

Hey Thanks!
Id like to get the best boiler for the money obviously but would rather spend a little more for quality and performance. I was hoping for the $7,000 range. I have no idea how to calculate heat load but I will say that I have spared no expense when it comes to the efficiency of the insulation envelope, from the doors and windows to how I framed the headers and corners, the main consideration was thermal retention. At this point I'm trying to get an idea of the reliable and trustworthy brands not so much specific units. I figure if the brand is trustworthy and lives up to its claim the salesman should be able to spec the unit effectively from information I supply (that was my hope anyway). There are allot of brands out there making a lot of big claims and I just don't know what to believe.

 

[leon]

Hey Thanks!
Id like to get the best boiler for the money obviously but would rather spend a little more for quality and performance. I was hoping for the $7,000 range. I have no idea how to calculate heat load but I will say that I have spared no expense when it comes to the efficiency of the insulation envelope, from the doors and windows to how I framed the headers and corners, the main consideration was thermal retention. At this point I'm trying to get an idea of the reliable and trustworthy brands not so much specific units. I figure if the brand is trustworthy and lives up to its claim the salesman should be able to spec the unit effectively from information I supply (that was my hope anyway). There are allot of brands out there making a lot of big claims and I just don't know what to believe.

=======================================================================================================

UHHH, you can forget dealing with a commission based salesperson helping you.

"You" "need" "and want" a heat loss study done on your home before you go anywhere!

You may be much further ahead with buying insulated storage that can be used to
its advantage with thermal mass since space is limited.

You have not mentioned whether you plan on burning wood or coal or wood pellets.

Boilers are rated on thier gross BTU output per hour

You cannot make any decisions until you know what your total
heat loss is.

NO you cannot size a new boiler based on the BTU plate on your existing boiler as
most of the time boilers are over sized.

A heat loss study involves counting the number of windows and exterior doors, the measuring the size of the windowsin square area and the size of the doors in square area and the surface area of the interior wallsand ceilings and several other things.

1.Does your existing boiler have a boiler bypass loop or a system bypass loop?
Is you boilers combustion air brought from the exterior of the home?
Is your existing boiler a condensing boiler???, they benefit from a system bypass
loop to keep them hot to reduce condensation to near zero.

2. Did you buy oxygen barrier pex for the floor loops????

3. Did you insulate the foundation and the ground under the pex??

4. Are the wall loops six inches from the exterior walls and are the ends
of the loops 6 inches from the walls?

5. Do you know the total length of Pex in your floor?
a. what I.D. diameter pex did you use

6. Is the Pex anchored in the plastic pex anchor sheets or attached to rebar
or concrete mesh?

7. Did you use a thermal concrete sand mix?

8. How many separate zones are there or do you have a single zone for heating??

9. Do you know what is the spacing distance is between the pex loops? 6", 8", 12", 16"???

You need to do a lot of work and after all that you may find a simple pellet stove with
exterior air piping for combustion air is all you need.

Just so you know the smallest wood pellet boiler runs about $7500.00 plus tax SO........................................ you can buy a lot of how water storage for that price.

 

[rizzon1]

=======================================================================================================

UHHH, you can forget dealing with a commission based salesperson helping you.

"You" "need" "and want" a heat loss study done on your home before you go anywhere!

You may be much further ahead with buying insulated storage that can be used to
its advantage with thermal mass since space is limited.

You have not mentioned whether you plan on burning wood or coal or wood pellets.

Boilers are rated on thier gross BTU output per hour

You cannot make any decisions until you know what your total
heat loss is.

NO you cannot size a new boiler based on the BTU plate on your existing boiler as
most of the time boilers are over sized.

A heat loss study involves counting the number of windows and exterior doors, the measuring the size of the windowsin square area and the size of the doors in square area and the surface area of the interior wallsand ceilings and several other things.

1.Does your existing boiler have a boiler bypass loop or a system bypass loop?
Is you boilers combustion air brought from the exterior of the home?
Is your existing boiler a condensing boiler???, they benefit from a system bypass
loop to keep them hot to reduce condensation to near zero.

2. Did you buy oxygen barrier pex for the floor loops????

3. Did you insulate the foundation and the ground under the pex??

4. Are the wall loops six inches from the exterior walls and are the ends
of the loops 6 inches from the walls?

5. Do you know the total length of Pex in your floor?
a. what I.D. diameter pex did you use

6. Is the Pex anchored in the plastic pex anchor sheets or attached to rebar
or concrete mesh?

7. Did you use a thermal concrete sand mix?

8. How many separate zones are there or do you have a single zone for heating??

9. Do you know what is the spacing distance is between the pex loops? 6", 8", 12", 16"???

You need to do a lot of work and after all that you may find a simple pellet stove with
exterior air piping for combustion air is all you need.

Just so you know the smallest wood pellet boiler runs about $7500.00 plus tax SO........................................ you can buy a lot of how water storage for that price.

As I said in the initial post, It is a new home, no previous boiler and I'm looking for a wood burning boiler. I am building in phases so the home will have may additions and changes so I have to plan for them but cannot do an accurate heat loss study at this point.
The 1/2 pex is O2 barrier and it is on 9" centers it has R6 of insulation below it and between it and any exterior wall. The pex is anchored in plastic anchor sheets. It is a thermal concrete. It will be 4 zones for now with an additional 2 later with an addition.

I do intend on adding thermal storage and I do have some space designated for it but I think I will be limited to 150 gal or so.
I was hoping there's an option out there to use an high wattage hot water heater for the thermals storage and maybe have it serve as backup heat for when I am away.

 

[maple1]

High wattage heater = electric boiler. Cheap & easy install, but anything that heats with resistance will use quite a bit of electricity. I would not use mine for anything but infrequent backup, I think I would be looking at something like $25/day to heat full time with it.

I have one for backup, 18kw. It was what I found a good deal on, used - I could get by with a 12kw one, I think. Big power consumption rating = more expensive breakers & wiring.

There are also supposedly air-to-water heat pumps in the works that will be able to make much hotter water than what is out there now. Haven't read much about them lately. They use a different refrigerant, maybe CO2? That should be something you could add on later if & when they come out - they're kind of in the back of my mind.

 

[rizzon1]

High wattage heater = electric boiler. Cheap & easy install, but anything that heats with resistance will use quite a bit of electricity. I would not use mine for anything but infrequent backup, I think I would be looking at something like $25/day to heat full time with it.

I have one for backup, 18kw. It was what I found a good deal on, used - I could get by with a 12kw one, I think. Big power consumption rating = more expensive breakers & wiring.

There are also supposedly air-to-water heat pumps in the works that will be able to make much hotter water than what is out there now. Haven't read much about them lately. They use a different refrigerant, maybe CO2? That should be something you could add on later if & when they come out - they're kind of in the back of my mind.

Thanks!
is there any standard batch heater (hot water heater) that can keep up, gas or electric? keep in mind I live in Tennessee where it rarely stays below 20 for more than a week and it would only be used to maintain temperature not to bring the thermal mass up to temp. my plan is to do some real world experimenting with the wood burning system to see how well the heat is transferred and retained before I add any further thermal storage/backup heat.

 

[Tennman]

What part of Tenn?

 

[rizzon1]

What part of Tenn?

Summertown, Just south of Columbia

 

[maple1]

Thanks!
is there any standard batch heater (hot water heater) that can keep up, gas or electric?

Not sure what you mean there - and I don't know anything much about gas, don't have it here.

 

[Tennman]

We're about an hour SE of you. If you'd like to see a boiler with storage PM me. I wish I had seen a working system before firing ours up. There's much to learn and seeing all the pieces is very helpful. Probably won't find a plumber or HVAC guy in your area who's ever seen a system like these.

Your boiler budget will allow you to choose from a number of quality boilers. I think I read you only have room for 150 gal of storage. For the size of your house and where we live you really need more storage. Prior to storage, running our boiler was like living with a small inside dog that controlled your schedule (we gotta get back to the house by this time or we have a cold house and long recovery time). Without significant storage your life is planned based on a burn or problems like bridging because it has been idling a long time. In our climate without significant storage your boiler will inevitably be idling a lot which is inefficient and time consuming and I think you will get tired tending a boiler with only 150 gal storage in our area. Strangely, storage is actually more useful down here where there are many days where the house only needs 20-30% of the boiler's output (like during 55-65F days this week). The guys in Michigan rarely need to deal with 60F days in January where it's quite common for us, including even 75F Christmas days. You should be able to buy a higher quality boiler than we have, but if it can't run hot as designed there are inevitable problems regardless of brand. I've read how the Froling can modulate the burn, maybe Froling guys can chime in, but I finally saw our boiler operating as designed when it was running hot and hard last season with storage. Far less bridging problems and much easier to live with regardless of the outside air temp.

Best wishes. If you want visit PM. If not no offense here.

 

[leon]

If you mean an instantaneous flash boiler your looking at a "huge" BTU per minute
demand call for gas that a residential gas feed will not be able to supply.