Newbie Harman User Needs some guidance

[Richard_Harvey]

Hello Everyone, total newbie here and in need of a little help from the experts. I have a "new to me" Harman P61A installed in my totally un-finished basement. I have installed a somewhat elaborate heat distribution system to get the bulk of the heat up to the main floor as I have no need to heat the basement. The system includes two 400cfm duct fans mounted way down-stream of the stove, an Aprilaire 600m humidifier w/additional 240cfm fan mounted post humidifier creating negative pressure inside the unit which "pulls" air into the unit and over the evaporative system, insulated 6" ducts and three strategically located floor vents on the main floor. This setup has been working very well for a few weeks while the temps have not dipped too low. But now that the colder weather has arrived I'm finding the stove is not able to keep my 2800sq two floor house warm enough on its own.

What I'm finding is the stove in either stove temp or room temp mode is not running hot enough at all, I have watched it for hours in both modes and I can see it throttle down. I have the best success running in stove temp mode with the probe sitting on the concrete floor but even still the stove throttles down. I want this thing to run more like a full on furnace. Even set with feed rate at 6, temp maxed out and distribution blower at max the fire is not always flaming high, sometimes it's just a very tiny flame (seems that's called a lazy flame), which tells me the electronics are holding back. And by the way, I have way more than 1" of ash on the lip, more like 2.5 - 3 inches with electronics set as described above, using New England High Quality Pellets so near no ash.

So my quest is to find a way to get this thing to crank, run at as high a temp as possible and get all 61,000 hourly BTU's out of this thing, yup run it like a furnace. How is that possible...?

Thanks everyone......

Rich

 

[F4jock]

Hello Everyone, total newbie here and in need of a little help from the experts. I have a "new to me" Harman P61A in my totally un-finished basement. I have installed a somewhat elaborate heat distribution system to get the bulk of the heat up to the main floor as I have no need to heat the basement. The system includes two 400cfm duct fans mounted way down-stream of the stove, an Aprilaire 600m humidifier w/additional 240cfm fan mounted post humidifier creating negative pressure inside the unit which "pulls" air into the unit and over the evaporative system, insulated 6" ducts and three strategically located floor vents on the main floor. This setup has been working very well for a few weeks while the temps have not dipped too low. But now that the colder weather has arrived I'm finding the stove is not able to keep my 2800sq two floor house warm enough on its own.

What I'm finding is the stove in either stove temp or room temp mode is not running hot enough at all, I have watched it for hours in both modes and I can see it throttle down. I have the best success running in room temp mode with the probe sitting on the concrete floor but even still the stove throttles down. I want this thing to run more like a full on furnace. Even set with feed rate at 6, temp maxed out and distribution blower at max the fire is not always flaming high, sometimes it's just a very tiny flame (seems that's called a lazy flame), which tells me the electronics are holding back. And by the way, I have way more than 1" of ash on the lip, more like 2.5 - 3 inches with electronics set as described above, using New England High Quality Pellets so near no ash.

So my quest is to find a way to get this thing to crank, run at as high a temp as possible and get all 61,000 hourly BTU's out of this thing, yup run it like a furnace. How is that possible...?

Thanks everyone......

Rich

Put the feed to 4 and put the stove in room temp at, say, 75. Now put some ice in a baggie, seal it, and wrap it around the room temp sensor. Leave the fan on high. Tell us what happens. It oughtta crank and keep cranking. Idea here is to test the sensor and ESP. From what you said about stove mode it might be ESP or board. When you say "new to me" I asume the thing is not new new? If so, has the ESP been cleaned? Has the stove itself been cleaned?

 

[Richard_Harvey]

You're correct in that the stove is not new, it's 4 years old. I purchased it on the recommendation of my local Harman store as they knew it was for sale because they sold a newer fancy looking stove to this guy. They also told me that he originally purchased it from them and that they had serviced it every spring and it was serviced just one month before I purchased it. I felt very comfortable with all that.

I'm going to do your ice trick tonight and will report back, many thanks.

 

[F4jock]

You're correct in that the stove is not new, it's 4 years old. I purchased it on the recommendation of my local Harman store as they knew it was for sale because they sold a newer fancy looking stove to this guy. They also told me that he originally purchased it from them and that they had serviced it every spring and it was serviced just one month before I purchased it. I felt very comfortable with all that.

I'm going to do your ice trick tonight and will report back, many thanks.

What I've found is that in Room Mode sensor placement is critical but what makes me wonder about the ESP or board is what you report in Stove Mode. Last problem I had was cured by replacing the sensor and I'd like to eliminate that as a source of the problem first. I spliced the cables while so doing so and with the extra four feet to play with I was able to move the sensor to a spot where I now get perfect temperature control. Question: Did the seller do the install?

 

[Richard_Harvey]

OK I just ran that test and I did not get the result I was expecting. Feed @ 4, room temp 75, bag of ice on top of the temp sensor on the concrete floor. Within 2 minutes the stove started to reach what I would call just stay lit mode, very low fire, no distribution blower running and when the feed motor did start it would only run for a short burst.

Put the stove back into stove temp mode, feed @ 6, temp at max and within 2 minutes the stove was running it's kinda normal again. That tells me that the temp probe or the electronics are not working correctly.

 

[Richard_Harvey]

No I did the install. It's running thru a finished fireplace that we rarely used. Purchased a PelletVent Pro chimney kit and it vents all the way up to the top where it is capped with the kit provided cap. Always had a good draw on that fireplace.

 

[Luv2burnPellets]

A basement location ? Are you using 3" vent pipe ? Check the EVL to be sure it is less than 12 ft. If much more, this might explain a lazy flame. ( Assuming a clean stove and clean vents ).

 

[Richard_Harvey]

Sorry, Newbie here - What is EVL

 

[Luv2burnPellets]

Equivalent Vertical Length. Measure vertical length of all vent pipe, and add equivalent lengths of all elbows and tees and horizontals. Do a search of this forum to read up on. Very important stuff if you did a self install. If professionally done, than it should have been done correctly. If your EVL is too much, you would need to use larger size ( 4 inch ) vent pipe.

 

[Richard_Harvey]

Sorry should have mentioned that my vent kit WAS a 4" kit. I go from the 3" outlet on the stove right into an adapter getting it out to 4" fast and then a short double walled collar and right to the 26' of stainless high temp flex pipe to the top of the chimney where it is capped with the kit provided cap. I did a lot of research before installing it myself so I feel somewhat confident that it's a solid install.

 

[F4jock]

Equivalent Vertical Length. Measure vertical length of all vent pipe, and add equivalent lengths of all elbows and tees. Do a search of this forum to read up on. Very important stuff if you did a self install. If professionally done, than it should have been done correctly. If your EVL is too much, you would need to use larger size ( 4 inch ) vent pipe.

I agree on the vent pipe having to be 4 inches but if it burns better in stove mode I also think that the room sensor may be bad. Now if you set the stove temp to max what happens? Same-same?

 

[Richard_Harvey]

F4 - It's set that way all the time now, stove temp mode, feed @6, temp @95 and blower at max. With this setting I get the most high flame time but it does cycle down to a lazy flame (lower flame) now and then for several minutes and the temp at the blower air collector I installed never hits above 280 210 degrees.

 

[F4jock]

F4 - It's set that way all the time now, stove temp mode, feed @6, temp @95 and blower at max. With this setting I get the most high flame time but it does cycle down to a lazy flame (lower flame) now and then for several minutes and the temp at the blower air collector I installed never hits above 280 degrees.

Ok. Last thing to do is pull the ESP and clean it. As for the temp at 280f I'm not sure what you expected. If you want to heat the whole house toasty warm under the worst of conditions you maybe need a pellet furnace. 61K BTU is a bit light for 2800sq feet!

 

[Richard_Harvey]

Sorry big typo, fixed it above. Air temp coming out of the blower never gets above 210 degrees. I was afraid that despite all my attempts to duct ALL the heat upstairs that the little stove may just not be up to the task and I will need to use some oil on those really cold New England nights. I will clean the ESP tomorrow when I can shut the stove down and let it cool. So it does sound like my temp probe may be bad. Would a working temp probe and set on room temp yield a hotter high burn than my current stove temp mode does...?

 

[F4jock]

F4 - It's set that way all the time now, stove temp mode, feed @6, temp @95 and blower at max. With this setting I get the most high flame time but it does cycle down to a lazy flame (lower flame) now and then for several minutes and the temp at the blower air collector I installed never hits above 280 210 degrees.

BTW I ran some quick and dirty calcs making assumptions about your home. You need about 135K BTU minimum to hit 75f.

 

[F4jock]

Sorry big typo, fixed it above. Air temp coming out of the blower never gets above 210 degrees. I was afraid that despite all my attempts to duct ALL the heat upstairs that the little stove may just not be up to the task and I will need to use some oil on those really cold New England nights. I will clean the ESP tomorrow when I can shut the stove down and let it cool. So it does sound like my temp probe may be bad. Would a working temp probe and set on room temp yield a hotter high burn than my current stove temp mode does...?

It should get pretty hot either way but I think you are asking too much of your stove. Just for grins, check out the spec plate on your oil burner and see what it sized at.

 

[TonyVideo]

Room temp mode goes by the external probe. Stove mode only uses the exhaust probe. The temp numbers mean nothing in stove mode. Just the single digit numbers and no reference to adjacent degree numbers. In stove mode the heat is constant. I would clean the ESP. 280 degrees cranked out the front seems normal to me.

 

[TonyVideo]

Also in room temp mode it will crank down periodically once the temp has been met. Then it goes into a maintain temp mode +/- 1 degree.

 

[F4jock]

Room temp mode goes by the external probe. Stove mode only uses the exhaust probe. The temp numbers mean nothing in stove mode. Just the single digit numbers and no reference to adjacent degree numbers. In stove mode the heat is constant. I would clean the ESP. 280 degrees cranked out the front seems normal to me.

Another thing to try. Turn your distribution system off and see what front temp you get.

 

[lightyear]

Another thing to try. Turn our distribution system off and see what front temp you get.

Check to make sure your black and red wires from the sensor are actually In properly and that they are securely fastened to the connectors. Mine came loose and the red wire was not touching the connector...meaning poor running.

 

[alternativeheat]

With the stove settings maxed out in Stove temp mode the ESP will never allow a stack temp over 500deg ( and actually you can never get a stack temp over 500 deg no matter what mode it's in), so naturally the stove has to trim back the flame. You're asking for a run away stove, Harman says no you can't have that. The stove is not a furnace, if you want a furnace they do make pellet furnaces. If you want the P61 to heat your house then move it upstairs.

 

[F4jock]

With the stove settings maxed out in Stove temp mode the ESP will never allow a stack temp over 500deg ( and actually you can never get a stack temp over 500 deg no matter what mode it's in), so naturally the stove has to trim back the flame. You're asking for a run away stove, Harman says no you can't have that. The stove is not a furnace, if you want a furnace they do make pellet furnaces. If you want the P61 to heat your house then move it upstairs.

Even then 61K BTU ain't gonna cut it for 2800 sq ft on two floors in Maine in the dead of winter

 

[Richard_Harvey]

With the stove settings maxed out in Stove temp mode the ESP will never allow a stack temp over 500deg ( and actually you can never get a stack temp over 500 deg no matter what mode it's in), so naturally the stove has to trim back the flame. You're asking for a run away stove, Harman says no you can't have that. The stove is not a furnace, if you want a furnace they do make pellet furnaces. If you want the P61 to heat your house then move it upstairs.

That sounds like a home run response, yeah I guess I was asking for a run away stove and it makes sense that it's not possible. I think I'm going to give her a good cleaning, fix and or replace the sensor and be pleased that it's handling most of the heat load and my oil consumption will be much lower than last year.

 

[F4jock]

That sounds like a home run response, yeah I guess I was asking for a run away stove and it makes sense that it's not possible. I think I'm going to give her a good cleaning, fix and or replace the sensor and be pleased that it's handling most of the heat load and my oil consumption will be much lower than last year.

Sensors are about 40$ on ebay. You sound pretty handy. If you replace, nip the tip of the old one back to the wires and splice and solder the new one to it. Gives you an extra four feet of cord to place the sensor more optimally. It does, however, sound like running in stove mode is what you want and as far as I know that is 100% ESP dependent. Just as an afterthought, been watching my flame closely last hour or so. Highest about 10 inches, lowest about 3. As well, feed time is approx 4.5 sec at a maintainance burn. If you are feeding longer the stove is controlling. Maybe not optimally, but it is.