Not near-boiler plumbing: DHW & storage

[Nofossil]

After lots of discussion and pictures over the years of near-boiler plumbing, I realized the most convoluted plumbing that I have is far from the boiler.

This picture shows the outside wall of my boiler room. There are six holes through the wall for connection to storage:
- DHW preheat supply and return
- Main HX coil top and bottom
- Storage refill (there's a few gallons a year of evaporative loss)
- Sensor cables

My two-stage DHW mixing valves are in the picture also. The first (and closest) mixes preheated water with cold water with a target temp of 115. The second mixes the output of the first with hot water from the DHW tank with a target temp of 118.

The water softener adds a bit of extra plumbing all its own.

The clear plastic tube at the top is a sight glass to monitor the storage tank water level.

You can just see the untrimmed window opening at the left - that's where we pass wood into the boiler room. You can see the 1" polyiso board underneath the sheetrock.

Mixed in with all this is a drain for the A/C system and the softener.

It should be obvious from these photos that you'd much rather have me doing controls than plumbing ;-)

 

[woodsmaster]

It don't matter what it looks like as long as it works. My wife may not agree with that statement.

 

[bigburner]

Glad to see your material selection was held to one theme "copper". I like the ones that use every thing ever invented - copper,galvanized ,brass, black , PVC, CPVC & ploy and lots of hose clamps all stuffed in an area half that size. I agree with Woodsmaster as long as it's leak free and works who cares, it's yours. Nice labels & lots of valves, my kind of guy.

 

[Hydronics]

If it works well; that's what matters...
Nofo, I appreciate your modesty. We should trade off, I'm good with the neat plumbing and crafting-not so much with the controls. I wasn't a big fan of my Fortran/Pascal programming course.
Hey, well written website by the way. I like the humerous comments also.

 

[heaterman]

That my good man doesn't hold a candle to some of the installs we run into. One in particular sticks in my mind. It made me think to myself that this must be what a pex factory looks like after an explosion.

I agree with BigBurner regarding the shutoff valves. Can't say how many times I have had to drain an entire system or boiler due to the lack of a shut off valve.

 

[nate379]

That is much simplier than my setup.

 

[Nofossil]

J.T. - My criteria are simple:

1) Done (rather than planned)
2) Working
3) Doesn't leak
4) Capable of being serviced
10) Beautiful

Bigburner, Heaterman - Valves are great, although there seem to be two truths about valves:

1) Every extra valve increases the chance that the leak or failure you have will be one of the valves
2) There will always be at least one place you wish you had a valve, but don't.

Hydronics - My one and only programming course was Fortran, on punch cards. I didn't like it either.

Nate - Them's fightin' words - where are pictures? I do have some more complexity inside storage and around the boilers.

 

[DaveBP]

Any plumbing system that is finished, does what you need(want) it to and doesn't leak(yet) can easily be made to look better.

Turn off the lights.

 

[nate379]

This is an old pic as there is also a water filter and softener to the left of the water heater now and all the pipes are insulated, but you get the idea. Most of that piping is 1.25" though there is some 1" and 1.5" as well.

 

[flameretardant]

I found this website cruising around. It some backcountry lodge. Whoever installed this mess must have been getting paid by the elbow. To top it all off, these guys are off grid and must generate every watt to run this monstrosity with a diesel gen-set. As someone who lives off-grid, it makes me wanna puke! If you want the lame explanation about this thing is supposed to work, its here: http://outdoor-furnace-chatter-creek.blogspot.com/ Sorry if a re-post. This should be a sticky of what NOT to do. For your viewing displeasure:

 

[benjamin]

Flameretardant, Nice system there, I especially like the pressurized crawl space hot air distribution system and the electric baseboards in an off grid setup?!?! Another fine example of the miraculous insulation value of whole logs also.

That makes me feel soooo much better about my pex and hose clamp jungle with zero isolation valves.

 

[flameretardant]

Its what happens when you turn loose a city plumber in the backcountry and money is no object. I heat about half their sq footage in a similar climate with 2 dinky Caleffi Solar pumps that draw 35 watts - combined. Thats it. No other electronic controls. TRV's and and an aquastat provide all the control anyone ever needs and use NO power. It runs on a couple solar panels.

 

[SteveJ]

I think I have the "pex factory explosion" to which heaterman was referring. :bug:

In my defense, this is an off-grid experimental two temperature (180F DHW boiler, and 120F radiant floor) system using an indirect water heater (Boilermate) as a buffer tank.

Comments (constructive) welcome...

 

[NYEDGE]

I think I have the "pex factory explosion" to which heaterman was referring. :bug:

In my defense, this is an off-grid experimental two temperature (180F DHW boiler, and 120F radiant floor) system using an indirect water heater (Boilermate) as a buffer tank.

Comments (constructive) welcome...

Well, it sure looks like a mess hh: LOL
I guess the pex does not lend to well to a "clean install" look, so I'm not sure if it can get to much better without causing restriction in the flow.
I read your post on thermal siphoning, and any reduction in flow would probably lesson your results.
It may not look pretty, but I commend you on your results. Especially since your running off the grid.

BTW, any chance to clean up some of the loose wires?
That would give it a cleaner look, and also lesson the chance of snagging a wire by accident.

 

[DaveBP]

That doesn't look like a PEX factory explosion to me.

It looks like a design prototype.

 

[rowerwet]

I found this website cruising around. It some backcountry lodge. Whoever installed this mess must have been getting paid by the elbow. To top it all off, these guys are off grid and must generate every watt to run this monstrosity with a diesel gen-set. As someone who lives off-grid, it makes me wanna puke! If you want the lame explanation about this thing is supposed to work, its here: http://outdoor-furnace-chatter-creek.blogspot.com/ Sorry if a re-post. This should be a sticky of what NOT to do. For your viewing displeasure:

looks more like the plubing in a brewerey or a bottling plant, or a sewer plant....
and the "heat sink" seems like a ton of wood is being wasted to heat the earth, I can't imagine the heat loss of a huge tank like that half buried in the dirt, I wonder if the glycol loop is insulated worth anything? and then they post that there are electric baseboards in every room, something isn't working if you need that! and with all those zone valves it mentions guests being able to open the window if the room is too hot....WOW

 

[Nofossil]

I think I have the "pex factory explosion" to which heaterman was referring. :bug:

In my defense, this is an off-grid experimental two temperature (180F DHW boiler, and 120F radiant floor) system using an indirect water heater (Boilermate) as a buffer tank.

Comments (constructive) welcome...

For once I'm speechless.

 

[SteveJ]

Okay, I have had the day to prepare myself...and I do not want to be responsible for nofossil's speechlessness.

Any comments welcome.

 

[heaterman]

I found this website cruising around. It some backcountry lodge. Whoever installed this mess must have been getting paid by the elbow. To top it all off, these guys are off grid and must generate every watt to run this monstrosity with a diesel gen-set. As someone who lives off-grid, it makes me wanna puke! If you want the lame explanation about this thing is supposed to work, its here: http://outdoor-furnace-chatter-creek.blogspot.com/ Sorry if a re-post. This should be a sticky of what NOT to do. For your viewing displeasure:

That right there is a perfect example of what happens when someone starts slinging pipe and swinging wrenches before thinking all the way through the process. No design work up front usually leads to lot's of un-needed expense, extra pieces and parts, excess energy consumption and sometimes total system constipation. In other words, it don't work.
I'm willing to bet they blow through 40-50 full cords a year in that place.

A good layout for that place probably would have needed only 3 variable speed pumps with zone valves.

 

[benjamin]

Okay, I have had the day to prepare myself...and I do not want to be responsible for nofossil's speechlessness.

Any comments welcome.

I can't understand what's going on, or what's supposed to be going on, or what's not supposed to be going on. If it's working for you then it looks great to me.


As far as the Resort heating system, all of that extra uninsulated piping looked to me like it was an integral part of the design of the hot crawlspace plenum system, which has to rank right up there with the earth heat storage in efficiency, and I'm seriously a believer in earth heat storage!

 

[Nofossil]

For my part, function wins over beauty any day. I've made a few rat's nests myself over the years. Usually it gets to a point where I finally understand what I really want to do, and I'll rip it all out and do it over. Sometimes you just have to get started - if I waited until I'd really figured it all out I'd still be heating with oil.

Steve - here's a picture of my original controller wiring. Hope that makes you feel justified:

 

[Hunderliggur]

I think I have you all beat in the PEX department. The colored lines (blue cold, red hot) are my domestic water distribution. Dedicated 1/2 pex to each fixture, no joints, no leaks! I had to have a plumber do the install due to local codes. The radiant is a bit more traditional, copper distribution for 3 zones to underfloor PEX. Got to do that myself under my plumber's "supervision". I had a great plumbing inspector (really, I did, he thought it all was pretty neat).

 

[bigburner]

Project coronation- space planning is always,always an issue with the HAVC department. But it starts with the design development phase of the project. Bring in some one who has an idea of the requirements for space and systems design to work with the architect to effect the correct square footage and location in the structure. What I see is a violation of all the above. The plumbing does bother me as much as the low head room, lack of a concrete floor, a pressurized RA plenum/crawl space with dirt floor. On the plumbing side- --You have every thing that will be in the space "in there" before you start -- then do a nice to have or a have to have scenario for placement of equipment. Looks to be mostly one trade, but that's the other issue, different contractors/trades have different levels of whats a responsible quality of work. We have a saying around here, when some one does a sub part job that they are proud of. "Looks good, it's just not something I could give to a customer"

Fifties today, doors open, working my way threw two grand doing oil changes and light maintenance. Four down, backhoe is next then service truck. Bucket truck and digger derrick will have to wait ------------- out of money

 

[huffdawg]

I think I have you all beat in the PEX department. The colored lines (blue cold, red hot) are my domestic water distribution. Dedicated 1/2 pex to each fixture, no joints, no leaks! I had to have a plumber do the install due to local codes. The radiant is a bit more traditional, copper distribution for 3 zones to underfloor PEX. Got to do that myself under my plumber's "supervision". I had a great plumbing inspector (really, I did, he thought it all was pretty neat).

I have the same manabloc as you, I installed it myself but I installed it within the stud bays and all the pex comes up from my crawlspace so it looks a little neater. Seems to work good the only thing is it takes a little time for the hot water to get to the fixtures that are further away. I dont think its possible to do a recirc unless its just on one fixture.

Cheers Huff