Off the shelf, commercial control system

[MrEd]

I am curious, as I start thinking about my control system, which likely will be a 2010-2011 year upgrade to my setup, besides the nofossil control system, and the other various custom/home built setups showcase on this site - what is the commercial equivalent of such systems? or is there one? Are these homebuilt systems built because there are no alternatives? or just because the alternatives are too expensive?

-Ed

 

[harttj]

Check out Tekmar controls. http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/

I've found them to work very good. If you keep an eye open on the auction sites, good deals can be found on them new in box.

Tim

 

[RobC]

Besides Tekmar, You could use a solar differential controller. Some have, for example, 4 remote sensors and can run 2 pumps ( 2 built in 120V relays ) in different schemes.
Rob

 

[kabbott]

I am curious, as I start thinking about my control system, which likely will be a 2010-2011 year upgrade to my setup, besides the nofossil control system, and the other various custom/home built setups showcase on this site - what is the commercial equivalent of such systems? or is there one? Are these homebuilt systems built because there are no alternatives? or just because the alternatives are too expensive?

-Ed

If there is a commercial "off the shelf" equivalent of the Nofossil system or another custom built system I have not found it. I think it would be possible to equal
the NFCS with a combination of controls but then it's harder to setup, and likely more expensive.

I put together my own variant using Nofossils source and as of this weekend it is in full control of my system. So far I love it, there is really no
comparison to my old relay logic/aquastat setup.

The NFCS is definitely not cheap, but you get a lot of control for the money. Judging from the numbers I have seen building my own I still
have AT LEAST 3/4 of money Nofossil is charging, Plus a whole lot of timeeeeeeeeeeee.

The best part is I am in charge of the system, not stuck with the limits of an off the shelf system.

 

[Mid Michigan]

There are many controllers that can be used from manufacturers such as Trane, Johnson Controls, Honeywell, etc......
The problem comes in you have to technically either buy the software or hire it to be programed from the service dept. or controls division of the said manufacture.
This will be expensive. I install these building management systems for all those manufactures listed above. I know the programmers and can probably get some programming and software done a lot cheaper or even free. But you would have to "know" someone to do it.
That is the route I may go next summer. The only problem is how to reprogram. You are then at the whim of said programmer. Not a comforting idea.

 

[fixmyboat]

I have found a line of controlers that will do most of the stuff of a NoFo. Their not cheap and the largest has 11 sensors and 9 relays. They will do vairable speed, data logging, differetial, outdoor reset, ect. My control will be a hybrid with standard smart thermostats controlling the baseboards/DHW via a taco relay and the Delta-sol E running the WB/GB/Solar and storage/radiant. Since I have the relay and stats already this will save me a little coin and still give me lots of control to futz with. If I had a larger house with more zones or more time/money to play with I would certainly get the NoFo as it provides ultimate expandability/flexability.

http://www.resol.de/

the main page is in german but the catalog has a english option and the internatinal link at the top of the page lists a PA distributer.

 

[Gooserider]

There are many controllers that can be used from manufacturers such as Trane, Johnson Controls, Honeywell, etc......
The problem comes in you have to technically either buy the software or hire it to be programed from the service dept. or controls division of the said manufacture.
This will be expensive. I install these building management systems for all those manufactures listed above. I know the programmers and can probably get some programming and software done a lot cheaper or even free. But you would have to "know" someone to do it.
That is the route I may go next summer. The only problem is how to reprogram. You are then at the whim of said programmer. Not a comforting idea.

I agree, and to me that is one of the biggest advantages of the NoFo system - you aren't locked into his work alone...

He uses mostly standard commercial "off the shelf" hardware, that gives a huge amount of expandability, and because it's built around a standard bus, gives you lots of options for add-ins from different manufacturers, so you are far less likely to get into the situation where you can't get parts or upgrades because the manufacturer came out with a new system and isn't supporting the old line any more...

In addition, because he uses "Free / Libre' / Open Source / Software" (AKA FLOSS) you aren't locked in on that side either - you get the source code, so are free to change / improve it yourself, or find a programmer of your own if you prefer, and thus you aren't stuck if NoFo gets hit by the metaphorical bus, or just decides he doesn't want to do this stuff any more... Try that with one of the proprietary systems when the manufacturer decides to drop support...

Gooserider

 

[Nofossil]

While I'd like to think that my controller is the pinnacle of desirability (at least as far as controllers go), it's fair to say that it's not for everyone. It's still relatively early in its development, so the software is getting revisions at a much higher rate than your typical Tekmar.

The price of the flexibility is a touch of complexity. While I've tried to make it simple, it's still quite a bit to wrap your head around. I've gotten great suggestions that should help improve these issues, but it's early days yet.

Finally, even though it's quite cheap compared to other systems that have similar capabilities, it's expensive compared to most residential control systems. If you don't need the sophistication, you can get a functional control system for less money.

If you like this sort of thing, I think it does offer a great set of features, flexibility, and upgrade ability. I was at a trade show recently, and people were excited about the datalogging and the ability to monitor, program, and control the system from a little wireless handheld. Still, if you want plug-and-play, this isn't it.

 

[MrEd]

I am not ruling out the NFCS, in fact I plan on taking a more serious look at it, I just like to survey the landscape and understand the options out there to make an informed decision when the time comes...BTW, is the pricing documented somewhere? or is every unit custom built and priced?

 

[twofer]

The reason I decided to go with a homebrew control system was because of cost, customization, and expansion. The cost to build my controller system that has an LCD screen, 9 temperature sensors, and 4 solid state relays was ~$120. The controller programming can be customized to however I want it to operate based on the temperature sensors. The system can be expanded to include more SSR's and temperature sensors, which I plan to do.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

MrEd, it depends on how sophisticated you want to get. If you are looking for a simple (dumb) system that automatically switches between wood boiler, storage and fossil fuel back up boiler then our BLT Control plus a tank aquastat, zone valve and circ pump work well (see our STSS1 or Square Tank drawings). BLT Control is UL listed and costs $400.00. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a much more sophisticated control that allows you to set a wide range of parameters on a wide range of inputs/outputs (well beyond just two boilers and storage) AND do data logging, the NFCS is the cat's meow!

Chris

 

[Nofossil]

I am not ruling out the NFCS, in fact I plan on taking a more serious look at it, I just like to survey the landscape and understand the options out there to make an informed decision when the time comes...BTW, is the pricing documented somewhere? or is every unit custom built and priced?

I'm still trying to keep down the number of units out there, and I'm also trying to be careful not to abuse my membership here with commercial promotion. I'm putting units out at a uniform (and discounted) price for the time being. Each system has a different number of sensors and options, so prices vary due to that. If you're interested, contact me via email or PM and I'll give you rough pricing info. I'll say it's a LOT more expensive than the system that twofer has done. If I remember right, he has an Arduino based system. If you're into DIY on that scale, it's pretty hard to beat that price. And I don't even have an LCD screen :-(

 

[kabbott]

The reason I decided to go with a homebrew control system was because of cost, customization, and expansion. The cost to build my controller system that has an LCD screen, 9 temperature sensors, and 4 solid state relays was ~$120. The controller programming can be customized to however I want it to operate based on the temperature sensors. The system can be expanded to include more SSR's and temperature sensors, which I plan to do.

That's pretty nice price for what it does really, I will have that much in relays before i'm done. >:-(
That is a good way to go if you don't wan't/need the the web interface to setup the system. Really once it is setup how often do you need to
change it.

I have some other plans for the SBC I am using for my Nofossil system, Or at least thats what I told myself to justify the money spent.
The thing about NFCS is it has many many more possibilities beyond the heating system such as lights, fans, my weather station..... And i can log in from
anywhere and view temps, change rules, turn on a light, check system pressure......the list goes on.

Anyone can look up the price for the hardware so here is what I paid for the three boards I have so far.
Item: 1
Product: TS-7800
Custom Description: SBC for my project 1
Qty: 1
Qty1 Price: $324

Item: 2
Product: TS-9700
Custom Description: SBC for my project 2
Qty: 1
Qty1 Price: $89


Item: 3
Product: TS-DIO64
Custom Description: SBC for my project 3
Qty: 1
Qty1 Price: $69


Order Total: $482

You can bet on doubling that figure even if you DIY it.

 

[twofer]

I am not ruling out the NFCS, in fact I plan on taking a more serious look at it, I just like to survey the landscape and understand the options out there to make an informed decision when the time comes...BTW, is the pricing documented somewhere? or is every unit custom built and priced?

I'm still trying to keep down the number of units out there, and I'm also trying to be careful not to abuse my membership here with commercial promotion. I'm putting units out at a uniform (and discounted) price for the time being. Each system has a different number of sensors and options, so prices vary due to that. If you're interested, contact me via email or PM and I'll give you rough pricing info. I'll say it's a LOT more expensive than the system that twofer has done. If I remember right, he has an Arduino based system. If you're into DIY on that scale, it's pretty hard to beat that price. And I don't even have an LCD screen :-(

Yesh (love The Office), my system is Arduino based.

Pffffffft! LCD screen is nothing compared to web based access and logging. It'd be nice to have a system like yours just bring up a webpage while I'm already cruising the intertubes to see how the system is currently running and how well the system ran over time.

 

[jpowell1979]

I use a Tekmar 262 dual boiler control with a couple of aquastats and it does what I really need it to do. It prevents the oil boiler from firing if there is heat from the wood boiler, I use fire delay and staging to accomplish this, and it gives me variable setpoint control for two inputs. I was able to get it off ebay for less than $150. I use aquastats for return protection for the wood boiler and low temp cutoff to the heat exchanger. I also get run time stats on most outputs. I would love to have web access to watch it all work from afar, but I can't really justify the time and expense to go that route. Maybe in another 4 years when it is a turnkey system I will reconsider.

 

[rvtgr8]

I know of a Tekmar 265 DHW controller that is used, but available. It is used to control as many as three modulating boilers (does that mean boilers that waffle?). After reading the last few posts, could I control my Garn and use my Burnham propane as a back-up in much the way Alaska WoodBurner is doing it?

 

[rvtgr8]

Alaska,

Where did you get the information to program the Tekmar that you have? You are probably a lot more knowledgeable about these things than am I and figured it out on your own. If that is the case would you be willing to share your settings with me?

 

[sgschwend]

Here is a question for the folks working on these cool systems.

How well are the temperature probes made? Are they just wires and solder? or cast parts with mechanical hold downs? shielded? Are they immersed or just connected by contact?

Thannks

 

[Nofossil]

Here is a question for the folks working on these cool systems.

How well are the temperature probes made? Are they just wires and solder? or cast parts with mechanical hold downs? shielded? Are they immersed or just connected by contact?

Thannks

I can't speak for anyone else, but the basic ones I make are soldered and sheathed in adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing so that they are waterproof. The semiconductor sensors are made with plastic housings (by the manufacturer) which puts an upper limit for temperature. They are typically installed by being held against a pipe with a foam insulator and a velcro strap.

For somewhat higher temps, I make a sensor based on a glass encapsulated thermistor. The leads are high-temp teflon coated wire.

They can be potted inside a brass or stainless tube if desired, but there's usually no need. I've also slid them into aquastat wells, sometimes alongside the aquastat.

Finally, for seriously high temps I use Omega stainless sheathed thermocouples. Those are good to a bit above 2000 degrees.

Other than the stainless thermocouples, I don't recommend continuous immersion. Hot water over time is pretty hostile to a lot of materials. For storage tanks and such I recommend putting them in a well. I use a 4' length of 3/8" soft copper that runs down the center of my tank.