Oil for Wood

[RowCropRenegade]

My 1963 fuel oil burner is nearing it's end. Had it apart the other day for some cleaning and inspection and noticed the waterjacket looks more frail than normal. That old boiler has probably pumped 80 to 100k gallons of oil over the past 40 years. God knows how many gallons of water has flowed through it. It's time for an upgrade. I plan on replacing the jacket and reinsulating it. But I think it's time to retire the ole bugger. Fuel oil at 3.8 this summer had me terrified. So I filled up my 1000 gal tank. Only to watch the price plummet to 1.50 and top off again. I'm estimating I will have consumed over 2000 gallons by the end of april. If fuel oil had stayed near that 4 dollar mark, that's over 8000 in heating! So I started my research over a year ago.

I have studied burning corn and wood pellets to the nth degree. I have plenty of acres of corn each year so I thought about vertically integrating. But after further investigation I decided having to blend wood pellets with the corn would put me back in the same place. I'm dependent on the fuel man now, sure don't want to be held ransom by the wood pellet guy either. So I'm back to studying wood boilers.

Dad used to cut firewood 20 years ago so have lots of wood equipment for use. Splittlers chainsaws tractor trucks etc. My wood across from my house is densely populated with Ash, Bur Oak, Red Maple and poplar. I don't have much expierence cutting up firewood but I'm no stranger to a chainsaw. Got a 20" Stihl Farmboss and 1970sish huskavarnah 30" saw.

I've been talking with Jim about his Garn. He has done a wonderful job in getting me started in my discoveries.

It looks like 20k to install a garn and get a primary secondary loop going. My fuel oil boiler needs replumbed. I know for one the expansion tank is in wrong place. There is no mixing valves. And when power goes out, the supply cold line allows more water to enter the system. It's been a great system, but it needs modernized. The house needs a heat calc done, cause I know its awful loss.

So what's the best alternative to a Garn? Obviously something with large supplemental storage tanks. 2 story farmhouse, 3 car garage detached and possible expansion to 60x120 machinery shed with in floor heating. From what I've been reading, in floor heat is the way to go. I love the heat the registers put off and large coils too. Mom has 3 old cast iron ones she's giving me so I'm planning on putting them in too. Efficiency is the name of the game, right? When it's bitter cold outside and the wind is blowing, I've seen my water temps running 220 degrees. It makes that 120,000 BTU boiler work. Someday I could do away with the wall registers, tear up the floor and put in the floor heat. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I know I don't want an OWB. Looked at my neighbors. It's now located inside a shop. I did notice the black smoke rolling off. I think I upset him when I explained cresote and the loss he is getting with the boiler. It looked like a sturdy unit, but after I read on here, I said I can do better. I see alot of guys love their EKO's. Watched a few youtube videos of guys explaining their systems. That boiler seems more sophisticated than the garn, but more control and versatility. How often do you EKO owners load your boiler. I'm looking to load max twice per day. Morning and nite. For house and garage.

Switzers, Garns, EKO's looks like the narrowed field so far. Hit me up for your personal recommendations. Up front cost is not an issue. Prefer to stay under 25 k though. It doesn't take long to justify expensive heating systems when you have an 6-8k bill each year for fuel. Someone has a quote on here about scarcity. Something about relying on yourself for fuel. The days of 35 barrel oil is going to be short lived.

I

 

[hoth2oguy]

Row, from what you describe, it sounds like you have quite a big heat load - especially if you add the machine shed. You may be fairly limited in your choices because of the high BTU demand. Garn would be a good choice as well as one of the larger Econoburn models (500k BTU?) with 1000 gallons of storage at least. Sounds like a fun project, you've come to right place for advice, lot's of experience here to draw from.

Chris

 

[leaddog]

I have an eko-80 with 4-500gal propane tanks for storage.I'm very happy with it. I also have looked at the garn and they are a great boiler. I went with the eko because I could get the storage and boiler cheaper as I was doing the work my self. I think both would work well for you. The plus of an eko is if you can put your storage at or near where you are heating you will have less heat loss. That is if you can't put the garn there. I do think the garn is easier to run, not that the eko is hard but the garn is lite and walk away. Horizonal stack is also a plus in some places. But the eko is a closed system and that means you don't have to have an hx like you do with the garn.Either way I think you will be happy.
leaddog

 

[Piker]

Just judging by the amount of fuel oil you have used, I would say you would need something along the lines of an EBW200 (200k Btu) just for your current heat load and some storage. 2000 gallons of fuel oil translates into about 10 or 12 cord of pretty high quality firewood. Mileage may vary.

A 60x120 machine shed could use upwards to 200,000 Btu's all by itself at a max of 30 Btu's/sq-ft in concrete. I don't know what you use the machine shed for, or if you are going to be in it every day... but if it's something that you'll just be heating up once in a while when you decide to go out there, some forced air unit heaters might be in order. If you plan on maintaining the temp 24/7, then the radiant slab is definitely the way to go... in my humble opinion.

When you get into heating multiple buildings, you get hit with a wide variance of heat load depending on how you use the buildings. If you think you would heat your house, the detached garage, and the machine shed 24/7, then a big boiler is going to be in order to keep you warm on the coldest day of the year. And... if you cool the buildings down at night, all but the house of course, your boiler immediately becomes oversized... this is where thermal storage comes in very handy.

If, on the other hand, you won't be in the garage when you're in the machine shed or vise versa, and you don't need to have either of them above 35 or 40 degrees when you're not in them, then you obviously can get by with the unit heaters and a smaller boiler.

good luck in your search. Take your time, get the facts, be happy.

cheers

 

[RowCropRenegade]

I'm pleased with the fast response in this forum.

So you guys with the eko's and storage... How long does it take to heat up a 1000 gallons? Is boiling to 220 degrees an issue? Being a closed loop system is very attractive in the fact that a heat exchanger isn't necessary like the garn. I surfed your webpage, Piker. You have a good question and answer section. I got access to cheap anhydrous tanks, which would be perfect for hot water storage. Already has ports in top and bottom. Each anhydrous tank can hold 800 gallons. Shaped like a hotdog, so stacking them up wouldn't be an issue.

Can you determine your heat loss calc by using how much fuel you burn? My 120,000 btu boiler seems a little under equiped. Putting heat in the machinery shed will be the last step of the process. I understand floor radiant heat requires lower temperature than wall registers. Do used EKO's hold their value as used machinery? I thought my first step should be just buy the boiler first then add the storage, to help determine what I need. But the farmer in me says do it right the first time and bulk it up to get the job done right.

I'm in the process of ordering the hyrdronics books Jim recommended to me. My pipes creek and crack and make funny noises. That expansion tank issue. I want to leave the option to use Solar Energy to heat the storage too, eventually. I understand step one is to do a heat calc loss. 2nd is to determine the make model. 3rd design to the plumbing. Any Switzer users to comment on their differences with the garn? I'm sure all three are fine units. But to determine what's best for my situation I may have to ask some pointed questions. I think we all agree that disagreements are a part of the learning process for all.

I'm open to any sales pitch on here, from salesmen to novices.

Thanks

Reed

 

[pybyr]

Kudos to Chris H from Bioheat for saying good things about other makers like Garn & Econoburn. It's such a good thing to see straight shooters and not just heavy marketing. Though I am not surprised, since that seems to be the heritage of Bioheat/ Tarm USA/ Nichols, who I have known about for 20 years and always been impressed with their integrity.

I have an Econoburn 150 and am tickled-happy with how well it is made and how well it works (finished initial install 1-15-09- still need to finish the storage). I've burned zero fossil fuel for domestic heat since I installed it, and am more comfortable than ever before in a big ol' farmhouse. As someone who's burned wood in a lot of different combustion appliances over the years, I am also getting more heat, per unit wood, than I have ever experienced before.

That said, if you have room for, and a willingness to build, a "Garn Barn" the wonderful simplicity of an efficient boiler and integrated storage, with no need for fancy controls, is really hard to beat.

If you want or are able to do storage separate from the boiler, Econoburn builds fantastically rugged and simple units and their factory support for your questions is just phenomenal.

 

[Piker]

OK... cheap sales pitch...

Buy American... buy Econoburn. lol

The water in a closed system shouldn't produce steam until about 250* at 15 psi. If you use thermal storage, you need to have enough radiation to be able to use water with much lower temps than 220... like between 120 and 190. The more delta T, the more Btu's you can store.

Equation:

Btu's stored = 8.3 x Delta T x gallons of storage.

You calculate how long it takes to charge the storage by subtracting the heat load from the total output of your boiler to figur your "overhead." Then divide the total Btu's required to charge your tanks (stored Btu's) by the overhead figure.

Different folks have different ideas about how to size thermal storage and boilers. It depends on how often you want to fire your boiler...

I don't know anything about your boiler... but 120k is pretty good sized. Are you sure your boiler might be big enough, but you don't have enough radiation to keep the house warm?

cheers

 

[Piker]

Pybyr,

I have always said, never buy from a guy who bashes the competition. Upstanding salesmen sell their product based on it's merits... not others' demerits. Upstanding salesmen also know it's as important to sell themselves and their service as it is thier product.

cheers

 

[pybyr]

Pybyr,

I have always said, never buy from a guy who bashes the competition. Upstanding salesmen sell their product based on it's merits... not others' demerits. Upstanding salesmen also know it's as important to sell themselves and their service as it is thier product.

cheers

Yep, thanks, I agree 100%-- and based on the phone support you offered me in my learning curve of getting a good gasification burn going (even though I did not buy my Econoburn from you), you're a great example of that, as are Mark and Dale at Econoburn.

I have no financial stake here, just a happy customer glad to have a good support network.

 

[pybyr]

I don't know anything about your boiler... but 120k is pretty good sized.

cheers

If it is from 1963 and still has the original burner head/ "gun" then it is probably not even a flame retention head oil burner- which did not come around until much later, and the pre-flame retention head units are wicked inefficient.

Some boilers and furnaces that pre-date that development were refitted with the later more efficient burner heads.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

The gun is made by Space Conditioning, Inc. The model is a MP98. The rest of the label is barely legible, even by flashlight. Can't find a year. It puts out .6-3.0 Gallon per hour. The label looks like 1960s style text. Got a few tractors from the 60s with manuals with similiar text.

Anywho I know it's probably inefficient as hell. Wasn't a big deal a couple years back when I was putting farm diesel in it for .75 cents. Never bothered me to fill it up for that cheap.
I wonder how much more efficient I could be with a new oil boiler. My grandparents have a fuel oil boiler that heats a house much larger and better insulated than mine. New boiler with all sorts of electronics I have no idea to test or work on. Mine is as simple as it gets. I haven't priced a gun for it, probably need some retrofitting anyway. But that old boiler will suffice as a backup.

I got sidetracked in my research tonite. Got looking at steam engines. Didn't know if anyone around here used their gasifier to help supply a steam engine for electric generation. You have to have electric, or these boilers aren't good for much. Considering the cost of electricity I think it makes sense to kill two birds with one stone. It may require a separate boiler but using your eko or tarm or garn or whatever to supply good base heat makes sense.

I think I would prefer an econoburn over the eko. American made makes me happy. From looking at this from possible steam generation a closed pressurized system makes more sense than a garn. Are used econoburn's around? Haven't seen any on ebay. Says alot if no one is getting rid of them. I think I'm leaning towards the econburn now, but I'm giving the tarm a little more respect. Next winter starts in less than 9 months.

 

[steam man]

I haven't heard of anyone here actually using a wood boiler to produce steam and electricity. You wouldn't get enough output to run much not to mention the complexity and cost of being a pioneer. There have been other ideas such as sterling engines and thermo-electric concepts but nothing seems to be well developed for mainstream use. Stay focused and get the heating system going. Do it right and keep it simple. No one has mentioned the Wood Gun units. I like the concept and they seem robust.

Mike

 

[Piker]

You will be hard pressed to find used Econoburn boilers. I have only ever seen one and that is my previous demo model. There are probably a few people who didn't size their boilers properly and will trade them in on bigger units at some point. I personally have not yet heard of anyone who just got rid of their Econoburn because then didn't like it, though I suppose anything is possible. I have had a few customers ask for used boilers, but in all circumstances, the manufacturer did not have any. They are very rare.

cheers

 

[Eric Johnson]

Welcome to the Boiler Room, rowcrop. You can buy a lot of boiler for $25K, even today. You might want to consider getting a pair of boilers that you can run in parallel, or a big, self-contained unit like a Garn or a Switzer. One interesting feature about the Switzer is that it's pressurized. The only downside I can think of is that it's made by one guy, so you don't have the same installed base that you would with a Garn (non pressurized). You should also check out http://www.newhorizoncorp.com. They have industrial-sized gasification boilers that might fit your needs. And, as has been mentioned, Econoburn makes units up to 1MM btu/hour. Doing the research is half the fun, and you've got a wealth of talent and experience on this website to help you get there.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

Good advice from all.

Steam man you are correct that I should stick to my heating. I'm like curious george, always curious.

Piker, didn't think many used ones would be around. I don't think I want a used one, but might be fun/cost effective for short term, until I decide what I want.

Eric, thanks for the welcome. Checked out your link, now even more options to look at.

Am I overthinking the pressurized verus non issue. The main disadvantage of non press is having to use heat exchangers. Any ideas on helping me decide on this one issue.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

One more thing. Efficiency 87%? how is that numbered determined/what does it mean?

Dad told me a neighbor had an OWB that consumed 12 cords to heat house and shop. Claimed 97% Efficiency. I laughed at him. But I laughed at myself too cause I didn't even understand what that really meant.

Laugh at me. Then educate the young padwan.

 

[Piker]

I believe the 87% figure is the THERMAL efficiency of the boiler. Meaning that of the total heat produced by the conventional combustion in the upper chamber AND the gasification process, 87% is harnessed and stored into the water while 13% is lost either out through the stack or through the doors or insulation.

Lots of boilers get good numbers on thermal efficiency as heat exchanger design is pretty similar between all the different brands of boilers... where the gasifiers shine is in combustion efficiency. Combustion efficiency is the ratio of energy released during combustion to the potential chemical energy available in the fuel. This is generally in the 90% and higher territory for most gassers.

cheers

 

[Eric Johnson]

Am I overthinking the pressurized verus non issue. The main disadvantage of non press is having to use heat exchangers. Any ideas on helping me decide on this one issue.

Other than needing heat exchangers (or one heat exchanger), non-pressurized systems are prone to corrosion and crap building up in the system because they're basically open to the environment. You can mitigate that with chemical treatment, but you have to keep after it or your components and boiler can rust out over time. The main advantage is that they're cheaper to build and can be put into applications where a license or permit might be required to install a pressurized system, especially in the sizes you're probably looking at. Some states require a licensed boiler operator to run boilers over a certain size, though probably north of 1 MM btt/hr, I'm guessing. Most (if not all) OWBs are non-pressurized.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

So does an OWB have 97% in either? Better chance of having higher thermal efficiency than combustion efficiency anyway.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Neither.

 

[berlin]

with that high of a demand and that location you may want to look into a boiler fired with a soft coal stoker, around 80% efficiency, with the exception of ash removal it's pretty much automated and basically smokefree with a stoker. google wil-burt they make some good underfeed coal stokers and can give you more info. if you're looking to save money that would be your best bet, you're located next to some of the best bituminous coal in the world.

 

[RowCropRenegade]

I'm not against using coal other than the fact that I'm dependent on the coal man. I actually refinished an old small cast iron stove. It burns coal. Thought about putting it in my shop.

Getting ready to go out and knock over some trees with the backhoe. It's just dry enough not to cut tracks and wet enough to dig around the tree and push it over. These trees are in the waterway and are causing havoc with drainage. Have a feeling the roots grew through an old clay tile. Leverage is a powerful thing, plus the stumps will be gone.

Eric, your house looks bigger than mine. I have been watching the temperature closer in the house now at different temps out. I had my little propane fireplace insert going last nite and boiler temp was only 80 degrees and house was 68. Right now the wind is blowing like hell and the temperature outside is 25. The boiler is at 140.
'

 

[RowCropRenegade]

I've narrowed my choices to three. Tarm, Econoburn, Garn.

Lets compare customer support among the three. So far Econoburn is winning with an email from a nice fella.

I'm going to measure the house this weekend and measure the registers in the house. Then hopefully I can get a heat calc estimate for free somewhere. I know these answers will narrow down my search for all three.

Knocked a total of 10 trees down yesterday. Most were about 18-22 inches in diameter. 2 Red maples, 2 ash, 2 silver maples, 2 bur oaks, and a couple walnuts. One walnut was dead already. Need to get them cut up before spring planting.

How many total ins and outs of pipe goes into a storage tank? 1 from wood boiler to tank 1 from tank to house 1 from house to tank 1 from tank to boiler 2 bottom 2 top correct?

 

[Piker]

Did you look at Nofossil's "simplest pressurized storage solution" stickey at the top of the boiler room? Different variations of that can be used for just about any system. Remember that to use thermal storage effectively, you have to charge the tanks by supplying hot water to the top of the tank... and you discharge the tanks by taking the hottest water from the top of the tank to your radiation. Also, the pumps need to stop running whenever you shut the boiler down. This keeps the water stratified in the tanks.

Of the three boilers you mentioned, all are high quality units. As a dealer, I am obviously biased as to which one you should purchase, but the bottom line is, you will more than likely be satisfied with any one of the three providing your installation is engineered properly for your particular application.

Most dealers/HVAC contractors give free heat loss analysis. It's a pretty simple process, and there are quite a few programs on the internet that will allow you to do one yourself. The problem, however, is that there is a little bit of art involved in the science of calculating heat loads, and it takes time and experience to get a "feel" for it... to interperet the results.

cheers

 

[RowCropRenegade]

No one has answered my question of anhydrous ammonia (aa) tanks for storage. There is already an outlet on the bottom as a drain and two outputs on top with pressure gauges on top. No welding necessary. Just t the lines. Those tanks can withstand up to 10,000 psi from aa. aa boils at -32 degrees. I can probably buy one for less than 300 bucks if I buy some fertilzer. Holds 750 gal. I can use the running gear for building another nurse tank trailer for spraying.

I think I've narrowed my field to 2. Now to figure out the dealer and quotes. I know how this stuff works. Getting new machinery into actual operation. Always a learning curve and it's best to start at least months ahead. Next winter is coming fast! Plus knowing which unit to get will allow me to know how long to cut my wood.... :O