Older HeatnGlo 6000TRI flame problems

[tbar23]

I have an ~15 year old Heat-n-Glo 6000TRI (propane). I have owned it for the last ~3 years, and the flames have never been impressive. Very small and very blue. Recently (and with the help of this forum), I decided to dig into the problem. Tonight I removed and inspected both orifices, I vacuumed the entire unit, and I ensured that there is definitely no blockage between the manifold assembly and the ports.
Unfortunately, this did not resolve the problem.

So I have two questions:
The Hi-Lo valve does not appear to do much and only has any impact on flame size through a very narrow range of the valve. Is this unusual, and might it indicate a valve issue?
Second, sometimes when I light the fireplace I hear a low kind of "roar" - almost like running a faucet, and sometimes I don't. After all of my cleaning, I no longer seem to hear that "roar". Any ideas what that might be?
This fireplace is a simple setup - no fan, standing pilot and just two burner orifices.

Thanks in advance.

Trevor

 

[DAKSY]

What control are you using? The H&G Multi Function Switch?
If so, the "HI" needs to be set with a manometer based on your gas pressure.
Has your gas pressure ever been checked?
The "Roar" you heard was from the LP igniting at the air shutter.
You may have had a misalignment between the burner tube & the burner orifice.
You may have corrected that when you reassembled everything.
Finally, what is the air shutter opening? For LP it needs to be mostly or ALL
the way open.

 

[tbar23]

Thanks, DAKSY. I don't think it is a Multi Function Switch. It has very few controls - an ON/OFF switch (which I think just parallels the wall switch), the Valve Control Knob (OFF, PILOT, ON), the Flame Control Knob (LO to HI) and the Piezo Ignitor button. That's it.

I doubt the gas pressure has been checked since install, but my guess is that is the issue. I don't think I'm getting sufficient pressure post control valve (and maybe pre-valve, too, who knows)

Thanks for the roar explanation. That makes sense as I did try to improve the alignment.

The log burner orifice is pretty rusted and I doubt I could change it, but it is mostly open.
The main burner orifice is more like 2/3 open. Definitely not all the way open.
However, the flames are very blue ... wouldn't that indicate plenty of air? I'm thinking the bigger issue is not enough fuel, but I could be wrong.

What control are you using? The H&G Multi Function Switch?
If so, the "HI" needs to be set with a manometer based on your gas pressure.
Has your gas pressure ever been checked?
The "Roar" you heard was from the LP igniting at the air shutter.
You may have had a misalignment between the burner tube & the burner orifice.
You may have corrected that when you reassembled everything.
Finally, what is the air shutter opening? For LP it needs to be mostly or ALL
the way open.

 

[tbar23]

Here is an image after at least 15 minutes with the flame control set to HI.

 

[DAKSY]

Here is an image after at least 15 minutes with the flame control set to HI.

View attachment 193204

Sure LOOKS like low pressure, but you need to check it at the gas valve pressure ports to be sure.

 

[tbar23]

Thanks. I'm going to build a u-tube manometer this morning and try to take some measurements. I didn't realize the control valves have the IN and OUT ports built right into the valve. That should make it super easy to check with some 1/4" tubing, a little water and a ruler.

 

[DAKSY]

If that doesn't work, I have a manometer...I'm about 35 miles from Bennington...

 

[tbar23]

Thanks for the offer - on a little bit too much of a time crunch to pull that off today, though.

One more quick question - my homemade manometer appears to be working fine (using my mouth as a pressure source). However, I am getting absolutely no pressure reading from either of the test ports. I am certain the test port screws are backing out.
Has anyone run into an issue where the test ports simply don't measure the right pressure?

For the outlet port, I backed out the screw and proceeded to light the pilot light. I could do that so clear propane is flowing, but absolutely no pressure change on the test port with shutoff valve open or closed (which, of course, extinguishes the pilot light).

 

[tbar23]

Okay, I managed to get the test ports to work. I thought the IN pressure port would work without the pilot light on, but that did not appear to be the case. So here are my results:

IN: ~11.75" WC
OUT: ~9.9" WC with flame valve set to HI.
OUT: ~3.75" WC with flame valve set to LO.

Okay, so now I'm a little bummed because these results seem good (perhaps a little on the low side, but not much). That being said, I have a neighbor with the same fireplace (condo units), and they definitely have larger flames with less blue.

Any ideas?

Thanks for the offer - on a little bit too much of a time crunch to pull that off today, though.

One more quick question - my homemade manometer appears to be working fine (using my mouth as a pressure source). However, I am getting absolutely no pressure reading from either of the test ports. I am certain the test port screws are backing out.
Has anyone run into an issue where the test ports simply don't measure the right pressure?

For the outlet port, I backed out the screw and proceeded to light the pilot light. I could do that so clear propane is flowing, but absolutely no pressure change on the test port with shutoff valve open or closed (which, of course, extinguishes the pilot light).

 

[tbar23]

My DIY manometer (see photo below) worked like a champ to produce the results above. The inlet pressure seems to be within spec and while the outlet pressure is not quite in spec, it is very, very close.

I now realize that I did not actually insert anything into the tubes behind the burner orifices (e.g. pipe cleaner or Q-tip). I did hold a vacuum to the openings and ensure that vacuum was being produced at the other opening. However, I think I'm going to try one more time with Q-tip and/or pipe-cleaner.
I'm also thinking about getting a bung/plug for one orifice opening and a barbed 1/4" hose fitting for the other orifice opening to check pressure at the manifold assembly. If that is low, then my issue must still be with a blockage in the manifold assembly or the line between the valve and the manifold.

My only other thought is that I don't have the proper burner orifices installed. For LP it looks like one of them should be a #54 and one should be a #66 (log). This weekend I looked through both of them, and I don't recall noticing a significant size difference, but the #66 should be almost half of the diameter of the #54.

Question for the forum - do I need to buy an HnG burner orifice or will any #54 and #66 brass orifice with male threads do? I see many of them that appear to be "flat" rather than the bullet shape of the HnG orifice. Does that matter?
Are the threads 1/8" NPT?

Are fireplace burner orifices different than boiler / furnace orifices? I feel like these things should cost a buck or two, but I can't find many online suppliers for the HnG versions and those stores want $8 - 10 per orifice plus another $10 - $20 shipping charge. I've got to believe this is something I can just pick up locally??

DIY manometer:

 

[DAKSY]

The HOLE diameter is what is important, but it must also seat in the end of the burner tube TIGHTLY.
You don't indicate where you are in Vermont, but if you are close to Bennington, call Best Fire in
Green Island, NY. (518 687-2387)...They will have the correct size orifice or they will have the kit to drill,
ream & plug yours to the specified diameter if you bring them down to their warehouse.

 

[tbar23]

Thanks, again, DAKSY. I'm just outside of White River Junction, so I'll see if I can find a local shop. I never know whether the local shops will be willing to sell low volume parts to a consumer - I guess it never hurts to ask.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like just under 10" WC should result in a flame height issue, correct?
I'm not sure what else to check other than burner orifice size, double-check that the manifold is clear, and if that fails, pull the line between the valve and the manifold and ensure that it is clear.

 

[DAKSY]

I think you should just pull the burner orifices with a 1/2" or 13mm wrench
& make sure the gas tube IMMEDIATELY behind each of them is clear.
Your pressure is good. Your manometer tells you that.

 

[tbar23]

I did pull them off this weekend with 1/2" deep socket. The gas tube immediately behind them is definitely clear. I guess I'm wondering if there might be a blockage that I can't see - thus the reason for Q-tip or pipe cleaner to push into the hole (the big threaded one, not the orifice pin hole since I've already removed the orifice). I did not push anything into the openings behind the orifices.

Otherwise, I'm running out of ideas.

 

[DAKSY]

Check those tubes. The spider nest may be further back in there.
That's the only thing that can be limiting your flames IMHO.
Are the orifices stamped with the number size?
If they are not the correct ones, a gas appliance service shop or a
propane distributor will have the correct size drills to use as gauges.
If the orifices were NG or the BURNER was NG, your flames
would be licking the top of the firebox due to the larger diameter holes...
It HAS to be a blockage.

 

[tbar23]

Agreed. That's why I was so disappointed when I tore the whole thing apart this weekend. I found plenty dead insects below the bottom refractory piece, but nothing inside any of the tubes. I even pulled the sheet metal box off of the "back" of that bottom refractory piece looking for a blockage. I'm really hoping there is something inside that manifold assembly that I just didn't get out!

 

[tbar23]

Okay, depressing. I had a chance to work on this some more. I removed everything again including the burner orifices. I used a pipe cleaner to definitively verify that the manifold assembly is absolutely clear of any obstruction.
I even decided to pull the flex tube between the control valve and the manifold assembly. It, too, is completely clear.
I also somewhat verified the burner orifice diameter. I measured the main burner orifice to be right around 1/16" = 62.5 mils. Given my measurement technique, I call this close enough to the specified 55 mils.
The log orifice is smaller, but it is supposed to be 33 mils, so I'm guessing that it is correct, too.

I checked the shutter openings, and they are also in-spec.

At this point, the only remaining issues are if I have some kind of blockage between the main shutoff valve and the output of the control valve or if there is some kind of main line flow problem
I don't think I can really tackle either of these issues. I suppose I could try to replace the control valve, but I'm at a bit of a loss here!

 

[RLL]

The HeatnGlo 6000TRI discussion: I, too, have one of these units, about 12 years old. Works great, except the Intensifire feature does not work right. If I press the Intensifire rocker switch and hold it, the added flames appear. But when I release it they go out. Any thoughts on what is wrong? Many thanks for any advice.

 

[DAKSY]

Have you replaced the 9v battery?

 

[RLL]

Have you replaced the 9v battery?

Yes, I have.

 

[DAKSY]

If you have verified that the battery is good, then it may be the solenoid going bad.
Not sure how to check it, & I don't know if a replacement solenoid is available...

 

[RLL]

Good suggestion, thank you! I'll look into replacing the solenoid.

 

[tbar23]

I posted on a different thread, but I finally fixed this issue. I drilled the main burner orifice out with a 1/16" drill bit and the fireplace finally looks normal. After everything I have done, I can't believe the fix was this simple.
I'd really like to get about three or four more #54 and #66 orifices so that I can experiment with a few different sizes. I'll have to see if I can find a local store willing to sell me some for a reasonable price.

 

[DAKSY]

I posted on a different thread, but I finally fixed this issue. I drilled the main burner orifice out with a 1/16" drill bit and the fireplace finally looks normal. After everything I have done, I can't believe the fix was this simple.
I'd really like to get about three or four more #54 and #66 orifices so that I can experiment with a few different sizes. I'll have to see if I can find a local store willing to sell me some for a reasonable price.

Not sure where you are in Vt, but Best Fire in Troy, NY will probably have what you need.
Call (518) 687-2388 & ask for Vic. Tell him what you want to do & he maybe able to mail you the orifices...

 

[tbar23]

Will do - thank you!