Pellet Boiler as sole heat source

[kofkorn]

Hi all,

My mom lives in Southern Maine and is currently in the process of building a new house to replace the old 1890, very large and drafty house she is currently living in. She is fed up with oil heat after spending ~$500/ month this winter on HHO. She recently saw the Maine Energy Systems deal for a pellet furnace install and fixed pricing for 3 years. She has heated with a wood stove for many years and is comfortable with the cleaning that would be required. Her only concern is handling the 40lb bags on a regular basis, which doesn't seem to be an issue with MES' bulk delivery.

I've looked at the boiler and it does seem to be pretty advanced. My question is to the pellet furnace and pellet boiler owners on the forum (and anyone else of course).

Have pellet boilers and furnaces advanced to the point that they are reliable enough to use as a sole source of heat? She will keep her wood stove and could use that in case of emergencies, but I am interested in hearing others opinions on their experiences with pellet boilers.


Links to the MES deal and the boiler that they are offering:
(broken link removed to http://www.maineenergysystems.com/Northeast-Affordable-Heat.htm)
(broken link removed)

Thanks!

EDIT: Sorry, Just realized that I should have posted this in the Boiler room. I guess I just live in the Mill too much!

 

[Fsappo]

I have a few customers that use only their pinnacle boiler or furnace with no backup. These are people that spent the money to buy spare parts to keep on hand and were walked thru the simpler repairs by our tech. These 3 customers were hands on guys who (being the pinnacle units are very simple beasts to work on) felt comfortable that if the blew a board, a lovejoy coupler, a snap disk or auger motor in the middle of the night when it was 20 below, they could get the unit up and running again within a couple of hours.

Aside from that type of customer who has that skillset and the foresight to purchase some spare parts, I would NEVER suggest using a pellet anything without backup heat..and the more advanced and complicated the pellet boiler/furnace, the stronger my point is. It would not cost much more to have a oil or gas boiler installed in series with the pellet system. Thats what I would suggest doing in 95% of the cases I deal with.

 

[kofkorn]

Thanks Franks,

At our old house, we used to run a wood boiler side-by-side with our oil furnace. It worked well and kept us really low on our oil usage. I know she's looking into a propane system as well, so she is aware of the dual-system approach.

Thanks for the input.

 

[summit]

go for a dual system for sure... unless you wanna answer the call at 2:30 in the morning that the thing aint running becuz the vent is dirty or the pot needs scraping.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I also vote a dual mode setup.

Even though with the cost of the MES setup it should run like the Energizer Bunny.

Depending upon financing and insurance issues mom may have things other than just service to think about (and yes I know some folks are coming around but it still limits choices).

 

[save$]

What might a realistic price be to get a pellet furnace bought and installed next to an oil fired hot air system? I addressing one that you would dump bags of pellets in. I know the range in stoves is huge, but no idea about pellet furnaces.

 

[kofkorn]

As I understand it, the MES system is in the 13-15K range. I would think that pellet boilers can range from 5K all the way up. In the case of the dump version, I would probably need to build some sort of a vacuum delivery system so that I could fill a bin with bags and she could use the system to fill the hopper. She probably wouldn't be able to regularly lift the bags on her own.

 

[mkling]

As far as price goes, round about 9-10k installed for my PB150 a few years ago, that included chimney, plumbing and moving my oil tank out of the way and running new pipes for it. Expect to pay a couple thousand over the price of the boiler/furnace unless you are going to do the work yourself... but then you might have insurance issues since you may not be able to have it inspected. I also agree on the dual set up, especially for cleaning on really cold days when you still need a heat source. Also, there are times when my PB150 needs cleaning and I don't have time until the weekend; I don't want to run it in to the ground so I shut it down and run off of oil until I get a chance to clean it.

 

[kofkorn]

I also agree on the dual set up, especially for cleaning on really cold days when you still need a heat source.

On average, how long does it take for you to do a cleaning?

 

[Como]

The local Rec has a 200kw Pellet Boiler, I have not heard of any breakdowns. Any Boiler can go out no matter what the fuel source.

Belt and braces first find out your heat loss. Size a pellet boiler to provide 75ish% of that, size a back up/top up fossil boiler to provide the balance, stop the building from freezing.

I looked on the MES site, they do have modern pellet boilers available so very little input needed from the homeowner.

When you think of it buying bags of pellets for a Boiler is a bit like buying oil in a 5 gallon can.

 

[kofkorn]

Belt and braces first find out your heat loss.

My first comment to her was to spend the money on efficiency design and insulation. That will save money, no matter what the heat source.

When you think of it buying bags of pellets for a Boiler is a bit like buying oil in a 5 gallon can.

I like that analogy. You're exactly right.

 

[mkling]

I also agree on the dual set up, especially for cleaning on really cold days when you still need a heat source.

On average, how long does it take for you to do a cleaning?

Now that I've got it down to a science... 2 hours or so, with doing the following:

1) Remove all fly ash with leaf blower
2) Use sooteater pellet vent cleaning tool to get any stubborn stuff out of the chimney (usually not much) plus my chimney is a direct vent with no stack
3) Remove combustion fan and cleaning housing with small round wire brush on my drill
4) Run sooteater from inside out one more time
5) Remove smoke chamber lid, vaccum out, scrape off any stubborn stuff with a putty knife, clean off snap disc, and make sure hose lines for the vaccum switch and manometer are clear
6) Remove turbulators and scrape off ash/soot with small putty knife, then vaccum
7) Run brush through turbulator tubes and then replace turbulators
8) Empty ash bin into large steel drum outside
9) Vaccum burn chamber and burn pot
10) Replace combustion fan and smoke chamber lid and fire back up

Of course the boiler requires a cool-down period before the cleaning, so I usually shut it down first thing in the morning and let it cool for at least 6 hours. Also, all of this is done with wearing a multi-purpose respirator to avoid inhaling lots of soot/ash.

 

[kofkorn]

Wow, that's a lot more than I would have expected, but I guess there are more components than in my stove. Thanks for the detail!

 

[Fsappo]

What might a realistic price be to get a pellet furnace bought and installed next to an oil fired hot air system? I addressing one that you would dump bags of pellets in. I know the range in stoves is huge, but no idea about pellet furnaces.

When we do a full install locally including venting, ductwork, wiring, etc it normally ends up being an $8000-$9000 job.

 

[Sting]

Takes me about 15 minutes - not including cool down but I have the old generation positive combustion chamber

I never clean the turbulators in season - why should I -- they are to slow and break up the gas flow - a little soot will not effect that

open the top - pull the turbulators knocking off the loose materiel on each - take a whisk broom and sweep the ash into the tubes - run the scraper - replace the the turbs - shoot a blast of air pressure up the power vent -and replace the lid - open the ash door - shovel the ash with the shop vac running in the area as you did when you worked on top = use a toiler brush to sweep the bottom of the vessel - open and dump the burn pot - dump in a soup can of pellets with lighter fluid and we are back to the races/

it will be for sale in a month

I also agree on the dual set up, especially for cleaning on really cold days when you still need a heat source.

On average, how long does it take for you to do a cleaning?

Now that I've got it down to a science... 2 hours or so, with doing the following:

1) Remove all fly ash with leaf blower
2) Use sooteater pellet vent cleaning tool to get any stubborn stuff out of the chimney (usually not much) plus my chimney is a direct vent with no stack
3) Remove combustion fan and cleaning housing with small round wire brush on my drill
4) Run sooteater from inside out one more time
5) Remove smoke chamber lid, vaccum out, scrape off any stubborn stuff with a putty knife, clean off snap disc, and make sure hose lines for the vaccum switch and manometer are clear
6) Remove turbulators and scrape off ash/soot with small putty knife, then vaccum
7) Run brush through turbulator tubes and then replace turbulators
8) Empty ash bin into large steel drum outside
9) Vaccum burn chamber and burn pot
10) Replace combustion fan and smoke chamber lid and fire back up

Of course the boiler requires a cool-down period before the cleaning, so I usually shut it down first thing in the morning and let it cool for at least 6 hours. Also, all of this is done with wearing a multi-purpose respirator to avoid inhaling lots of soot/ash.

 

[rowerwet]

there is another thread around here that figures out that the "deal" on the stove and pellet pricing isn't much of one, of course that is if you are the type to shop around and get your pellets on your own, and the stoves seem kind of overpriced for me, (mine was 7k by itself plus another 3k or so to hook it up, the cleaning on mine takes 10 min or so and involves brushing the HX and scooping the ash out of the ash pit in the firebox.
from what I have read pellets are not ok for the bank to sign on a mortgage, they require a "maintenance free" oil, electric, or gas system since they can run for months while a foreclosure is being processed. That would be an issue when you had to sell even if not while building.

 

[Sting]

few years back - a pellet dealer was severely injured. The family spent a week watching him in intensive care. Safe to say there was a reason no one tended the stove. Since the stove was the primary heat source and "failed" --- home owner's insurance covered the (considerable) frost burst damage.

 

[velotocht]

Rowerwet wrote:

"pellets are not ok for the bank to sign on a mortgage, they require a “maintenance free†oil, electric, or gas system since they can run for months while a foreclosure is being processed....:

Rowerwet:
I thnk you hit the nail right on the head here ... My wife and I looked into building a new home back in 2008 when the building industry screeched to a halt. I thought it to be a good time - as mortgage rates were down and the construction industry was very anxious to make customers with money happy!

But the banks were not friendly - While they cranked down the mortgage rates, they cranked up qualification requirements and restrictions. Basically, anything that was not considered 'conventional construction' was disallowed. I thought about putting in a pellet or wood boiler - and keeping my pellet stove as a backup heat source - but that did not meet the bank's mortgage requirements. I would also have to add a third 'conventional' heat system: Electric, gas or oil. I guess the banks want to keep the cash flow to the middle east 'sovereign funds' constant and strong!

Then, when I talked to the town about a boiler, they showed me a map where I could and could not have a wood boiler. The map basically restricted wood (and pellet) boilers from any of the valleys in the county and high density building areas. Even my current home cannot have a wood (or pellet) boiler. A pellet stove is OK - as it is not the 'primary' heat source - and therefore does not run very much! (Yeah, right. I've used 125 gallons of oil since November ... and this is one of the coldest winters on record in recent years ...).

So, we decided not to build ...

RonB

 

[mascoma]

velotocht - your decided not to build because you could not put in a pellet furnace? That seems like a silly reason to scrap an entire plan to build a nice new house.

Whats to stop someone from putting in a few strips of electric baseboard as their (primary) source for the bank and run a pellet unit all the time? That would be cheap!

 

[velotocht]

Mascoma:

The restrictions on 'non conventional heat sources' were a small part of the limitation discouraging us from building. Several other things also came in to play in this decision:

* 20% down payment requirement (not a US citizen)
* 30% income limitation (would need to hold down 2 mortgages as the new home was being constructed)
* high percentage home completion requirements (>99%) before we could get a certificate of occupancy
* rapidly falling real estate market in Dutchess county NY in mid 2008 / 09.

Hind-stie being 20/20, based on the continuing falling of real estate values here in NY, I'm glad we didn't build. 'Cause we're still not at the 'bottom' here yet! Check out this link:

http://www.zillow.com/local-info/NY-home-value/r_43/#{scid=mor-site-topnavlocalsub}&metric=mt=34&dt=1&tp=5&rt=14&r=43%2C395001&el=0

Take care
RonB