Pellet stove caused heat pipes to freeze

[xbillyx]

Hi, I'm new here. My wife and I moved to Prince Edward Island several months ago. This is our first winter in a very cold climate.

I'll begin by explaining the setup in our house.

We have an oil-fired boiler which distributes hot water through heat pipes and radiates out through baseboards in our house. We have two zones in our house: one for the (finished) basement and one for the main floor. That's our main source of heat. Well, we heard horror stories from people as to how much people here spend on heating their houses with oil so we purchased a pellet stove.

Note: our hot water heater is also oil-fired. Our boiler heat system is a closed system and is separate from our water system.

My routine is/was as follows: wake up in the morning and turn on the pellet stove. Run the pellet stove all day until it's time to go to bed. Turn off the pellet stove. This whole time the thermostat has been set for the oil heat in the house. Therefore, the goal was for the oil to kick in (a little) overnight, just to distribute water/heat through the system to prevent frozen pipes.

Well, it hit -30 something last weekend and my wife and I awoke to a freezing cold house. The heat pipes in one half of the main floor had frozen. Luckily, the plumber was able to thaw them without any bursting.

The source of the problem? He and I both guessed it was due to the pellet stove throwing off the thermostat (for the oil heat). I noticed this during each day. The pellet stove would heat up the main floor and the thermostat would rise above the set temperature. For example, I would have the thermostat for the main heat source (oil) set to 68 but the pellet stove would warm up the house and the thermostat current temperature would read 72. The thermostat properly noticed it was warm enough in the house so it didn't turn the oil heat on. Anyway, this caused my heat pipes to freeze.

The reason my wife and I purchased the pellet stove was to save on oil costs and to utilize a cleaner-burning heat source. Now I'm not sure what to do. I don't want my heat pipes to freeze again. What do you all recommend?

Here are some options I'm considering:
1) The plumber suggested adding glycol to the boiler. He said this would prevent freezing and we could use our pellet stove and not worry about the fact that water wouldn't be going through the heat pipes for long periods of time. He did admit this would lower the efficiency of the boiler, though (the operating temperature).
2) We moved our furniture and TV and are now using the room that has the pellet stove in it as our living room. There are doors that we could close to try to keep the heat in and just keep the living room warmer than the rest of the house. However, there is a 2 inch or so crack at the bottom of the doors so some heat would make it into the dining room and probably into the hall where the thermostat for the oil heat is.

What would you recommend?

Is it a good idea to add glycol to a boiler? I've seen pros and cons online. A lot of people seem to recommend you don't do it.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. We'd love to use as little oil as possible. Thanks!

 

[imacman]

Billy, welcome to the forum....you'll find a lot of very knowledgeable people here.

As for your frozen pipe problem, solve it forever with the ThermGuard from bear Mountain Designs. It turns your oil burner on for whatever zone you want for a few minutes every couple of hours just to warm the pipes....you can choose whatever settings you want to suit your situation.

I installed one in my upstairs bedroom zone. I have the regular thermostat set for 50 degrees, and have the ThermGuard set to run for 2 minutes every 2 1/2 hours....works like a charm.

There should be an ad for it at the bottom of some of the pages, as they are an advertiser here, but here's their web address anyway:

www.bearmountaindesign.com

There's also a 10% discount for hearth.com members....enter code: 101657512 in the vouncher/discount code. The hit the recalculate button.

Ends up being about $62

 

[daydreamer]

Get a Thermguard from www.bearmountaindesign.com. We use one because we have a propane fired boiler that does not come on because the thermostat is in the same room as the pellet stove. Now we can have it run for a few minutes every so often to keep our pipes from freezing. The Thermguard is easy to program and very adjustable for your time settings. They were very quick about sending one out when I ordered one.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'm going to chime in on the glycol question, and your plumbing guy ain't going to like it.

Never add any chemical to boiler water if that boiler is self filling and hooked to your potable water system in any manner. It is very likely that your heating system is hooked up to your potable water system, never, I repeat never, rely on any mechanical isolation device (backflow valves included) to protect your water system from being contaminated.

As for keeping your pipes from freezing, could you provide a bit more information on how your house is constructed and what is underneath the pipes that froze, where the pipes are, any pipe insulation, where in the system did it freeze, etc....

 

[orangecrushcj7]

Thermguard is going to be your best solution. you could also get a programmable thermostat and set it to turn the heat up (above what the stove is capable of heating the house to, say 74 or so) for 15 mins or so several times a day. I know that my grandfather's house has glycol in his hydronic heating system, but it is a sealed system that doesn't tie into his domestic water supply. That may be an option for you, if the plumber can make the system sealed and totally isolated from your domestic water.

 

[chuckpp]

Hi, I'm new here. My wife and I moved to Prince Edward Island several months ago. This is our first winter in a very cold climate.

I'll begin by explaining the setup in our house.

We have an oil-fired boiler which distributes hot water through heat pipes and radiates out through baseboards in our house. We have two zones in our house: one for the (finished) basement and one for the main floor. That's our main source of heat. Well, we heard horror stories from people as to how much people here spend on heating their houses with oil so we purchased a pellet stove.

Note: our hot water heater is also oil-fired. Our boiler heat system is a closed system and is separate from our water system.

My routine is/was as follows: wake up in the morning and turn on the pellet stove. Run the pellet stove all day until it's time to go to bed. Turn off the pellet stove. This whole time the thermostat has been set for the oil heat in the house. Therefore, the goal was for the oil to kick in (a little) overnight, just to distribute water/heat through the system to prevent frozen pipes.

Well, it hit -30 something last weekend and my wife and I awoke to a freezing cold house. The heat pipes in one half of the main floor had frozen. Luckily, the plumber was able to thaw them without any bursting.

The source of the problem? He and I both guessed it was due to the pellet stove throwing off the thermostat (for the oil heat). I noticed this during each day. The pellet stove would heat up the main floor and the thermostat would rise above the set temperature. For example, I would have the thermostat for the main heat source (oil) set to 68 but the pellet stove would warm up the house and the thermostat current temperature would read 72. The thermostat properly noticed it was warm enough in the house so it didn't turn the oil heat on. Anyway, this caused my heat pipes to freeze.

The reason my wife and I purchased the pellet stove was to save on oil costs and to utilize a cleaner-burning heat source. Now I'm not sure what to do. I don't want my heat pipes to freeze again. What do you all recommend?

Here are some options I'm considering:
1) The plumber suggested adding glycol to the boiler. He said this would prevent freezing and we could use our pellet stove and not worry about the fact that water wouldn't be going through the heat pipes for long periods of time. He did admit this would lower the efficiency of the boiler, though (the operating temperature).
2) We moved our furniture and TV and are now using the room that has the pellet stove in it as our living room. There are doors that we could close to try to keep the heat in and just keep the living room warmer than the rest of the house. However, there is a 2 inch or so crack at the bottom of the doors so some heat would make it into the dining room and probably into the hall where the thermostat for the oil heat is.

What would you recommend?

Is it a good idea to add glycol to a boiler? I've seen pros and cons online. A lot of people seem to recommend you don't do it.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. We'd love to use as little oil as possible. Thanks!

All you need is a programable themostat set it to come on in the middle of the every night for ten minutes at 80 degrees...
simple ...Your pellets stove won't mess up the thermostat because i don't think you keep your room at 80...

chuck

 

[xbillyx]

Billy, welcome to the forum....you'll find a lot of very knowledgeable people here.

As for your frozen pipe problem, solve it forever with the ThermGuard from bear Mountain Designs. It turns your oil burner on for whatever zone you want for a few minutes every couple of hours just to warm the pipes....you can choose whatever settings you want to suit your situation.

I installed one in my upstairs bedroom zone. I have the regular thermostat set for 50 degrees, and have the ThermGuard set to run for 2 minutes every 2 1/2 hours....works like a charm.

There should be an ad for it at the bottom of some of the pages, as they are an advertiser here, but here's their web address anyway:

www.bearmountaindesign.com

There's also a 10% discount for hearth.com members....enter code: 101657512 in the vouncher/discount code. The hit the recalculate button.

Ends up being about $62

Wow, thanks so much for your help! I had just seen an ad or link to ThermGuard on this site and bookmarked it to read later. Once I got your message I went to the website and read through it all.

I know I definitely need to get one for the main floor of my house to protect my heat pipes from freezing. I also need the kitchen and bathroom to be warm enough so my water pipes don't freeze. I guess leaving doors open (and cupboards if I can keep my cats out) would help with that.

Would you recommend I pick up a second for my basement. My basement is finished and has a bathroom and washer/dryer. So, I do keep the heat on low down there to protect my water pipes. I guess I also need to protect my heat pipes because there are baseboards down there as well.

What would you recommend setting the interval to? I live on Prince Edward Island. I'd say most days it's been getting down to -8 F (-20 something with the wind). Last weekend it got to -30 something, which is when my pipes froze. I'm thinking I need to have it switch on pretty often...maybe every hour. Also, what is a good duration to set it to?

Thanks for your help everyone! I really appreciate it.

 

[investor7952]

So the thermguard just turns unit on for a few min every 2-3 hrs or wherever you set it.My question is what does this do for the programable thermostat I already have? Lets say stove goes out I have oil burner thermostat set at 68 or whatever will it still fnction the same when I need heat?

 

[investor7952]

Billy, welcome to the forum....you'll find a lot of very knowledgeable people here.

As for your frozen pipe problem, solve it forever with the ThermGuard from bear Mountain Designs. It turns your oil burner on for whatever zone you want for a few minutes every couple of hours just to warm the pipes....you can choose whatever settings you want to suit your situation.

I installed one in my upstairs bedroom zone. I have the regular thermostat set for 50 degrees, and have the ThermGuard set to run for 2 minutes every 2 1/2 hours....works like a charm.

There should be an ad for it at the bottom of some of the pages, as they are an advertiser here, but here's their web address anyway:

www.bearmountaindesign.com

There's also a 10% discount for hearth.com members....enter code: 101657512 in the vouncher/discount code. The hit the recalculate button.

Ends up being about $62

What temp demand does thermostat call for for those 2 min ? Is it just a burst of hot water at min temp do u need to set it at a degre?

 

[Wet1]

So the thermguard just turns unit on for a few min every 2-3 hrs or wherever you set it.My question is what does this do for the programable thermostat I already have? Lets say stove goes out I have oil burner thermostat set at 68 or whatever will it still fnction the same when I need heat?

The thermgaurd is transparent to your thermostat, it will function as it always has.

 

[Wet1]

Billy, welcome to the forum....you'll find a lot of very knowledgeable people here.

As for your frozen pipe problem, solve it forever with the ThermGuard from bear Mountain Designs. It turns your oil burner on for whatever zone you want for a few minutes every couple of hours just to warm the pipes....you can choose whatever settings you want to suit your situation.

I installed one in my upstairs bedroom zone. I have the regular thermostat set for 50 degrees, and have the ThermGuard set to run for 2 minutes every 2 1/2 hours....works like a charm.

There should be an ad for it at the bottom of some of the pages, as they are an advertiser here, but here's their web address anyway:

www.bearmountaindesign.com

There's also a 10% discount for hearth.com members....enter code: 101657512 in the vouncher/discount code. The hit the recalculate button.

Ends up being about $62

What temp demand does thermostat call for for those 2 min ? Is it just a burst of hot water at min temp do u need to set it at a degre?

It just closes the circuit like a thermostat does when it calls for heat. The set points on your boiler will determine what the temp thresholds are.

 

[imacman]

So the thermguard just turns unit on for a few min every 2-3 hrs or wherever you set it.My question is what does this do for the programable thermostat I already have? Lets say stove goes out I have oil burner thermostat set at 68 or whatever will it still fnction the same when I need heat?

Yes, as Wet1 explains above, the ThermGuard has nothing to do w/ the settings on your 'stat. It works independently of that.
It just turns on the burner and sends hot water through the pipes for whatever length of time you decide.

I spoke to John Bridgerman who makes & sells the Thermguard (you can PM him here..."bridgerman"), and told him where I live, what the normal temps are in winter, etc, and he gave me a baseline to start with, and I adjusted them from there. He's a nice guy.

 

[xbillyx]

Thanks for all the helpful information on this topic. This is my first winter in a very cold climate so I'm getting used to things I never had to think about before.

ThermGuard looks like a great solution for me. I just need to decide if I need one or two.

 

[imacman]

.... I just need to decide if I need one or two.

As I mentioned in my PM, you could use more than one....IMO, another $62 is a LOT cheaper than having a plumber come rip your walls apart, or replace pipes....that stuff will run many $$$.

 

[pelletizer]

What if you moved the thermostat so it would not be effected by the stove and also insulate the exposed pipes?

How are you guys in PEI doing on pellets I was on line this morning CBC PEI sounds like a pellet shortage on the island?

(broken link removed to http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2009/01/23/pe-pellet-shortage.html)

 

[xbillyx]

I may go ahead and get two then, just to be safe. My basement should be better off, as it's probably close to or below the frost line. Don't know for sure, though.

I could move the thermostat but that would result in using more oil. I'd rather use as little as possible.

I saw that article on the pellet shortage as well. Luckily, I bought two pallets worth at the beginning of the winter and I have most of that left still, as I haven't really been utilizing my pellet stove much yet. I want to get everything figured out with my heat pipes first. I think the first step is ordering some ThermGuards.

 

[Sting]

A hole in the wall letting a stream of outside air - the size of a pencil - directly blowing on an uninsulated pipe can freeze said pipe area in minutes.

Then what good will circulation be if it happens only every two hours -- none, the pipe is already blocked!


Smokey da Bear --- Bravo, nice post on chemicals and back flow.

Constant circulation is the only answer -- well you could heat with a pellet boiler -- or simply move the thermostat currently constipated by the stove!

 

[pelletizer]

I have some romote heating pipes insulated with a 2" to 3" fibre glass wrap not the black foam type, and have not had any freeze up yet and we did hit 19 below last week here in NH

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Thanks Sting,

I know of a person who managed to do a number on his well that way so I remember things like that.

You are also dead on about a small hole being able to freeze water in a pipe in short order.

What some people also don't understand is that the practice of letting water drip can sometimes cause problems with drains freezing. I think my mother in laws neighbors discovered that when their dripping shower caused the drain (sitting over an unheated, unsealed, uninsulated crawlspace) to freeze. I guess they had a mess in the bathroom so to speak when certain facilities got used.

xbillyx,

I asked the question in order to figure out what the situation really was, sometimes even fooling the furnace into periodically calling for heat in a zone will not prevent a zone from freezing.

 

[kbd627]

Had heat pipe freeze in my house when not using stove. Was a few years ago. Wasn't using stove at time. Raised ranch 2 car garage under bedrooms doors on side. 2 zones. Upstairs froze when heat was turned down to 60 at night and temp was below zero. Original owner of house and it was built in 1994. Builder only put baseboard on front and back walls and dropped pipe under floor (right in front of garage doors) then back up. Cut hole in garage ceiling and wrapped pipe (bare) and added more insulation in soffet. Last couple of weeks was the first time it has gotten that cold since and no problem. Only post this cause you said you just moved there. Perhaps the stove is not the culprit but poorly insulated pipes. Good luck!

 

[xbillyx]

I hadn't had any problems until I started using my pellet stove and my boiler wasn't kicking in. Although, I did have problems on the day it hit -30 something (with wind).

I have one area of concern...there's a new addition on my house the previous owner added. Exposed heat pipes run under the floor in the crawl space. I replaced heat tape that had gone bad and insulated. The plumber guessed the pipes had first frozen in bedrooms at the other side of the house. Most of my baseboards are against outer walls. The place where he thinks the pipes first froze is the farthest from the pellet stove. That would make sense if the boiler wasn't turning on at all.

I really just want to be able to use my pellet stove and not worry about my baseboard (oil) heaters unless I want to use them.

It seems installing ThermGuard and setting it to a shorter interval makes sense.

 

[imacman]

.....It seems installing ThermGuard and setting it to a shorter interval makes sense.

Yep.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You do what you wish xbillyx. I still don't have enough information to go on so I'll continue not to make suggestions on frozen pipe situation.

My main reason for posting was to prevent you from using a dangerous chemical in a situation that might cause you or others to be poisoned and in addition having to replace your potable water supply.

kbd627, things like that would make me livid.

 

[xbillyx]

I'd much rather use ThermGuard than glycol. Thanks for the warning.

 

[camdids]

I recently had a frozen heating pipe behind an outside wall/roof opening. Got the Thermguard thanks to MAcman letting me know about it. Its been installed since the start of the year. I have it programed to turn on for three minutes( the time it takes for the hot water to circle the upstairs rooms and return to the boiler), every hour and a half. I leave the thermostat on just incase the stove goes out.
The temp in the rooms is 66. The thermostat is set at 62. (The same temps when I got th efrozen pipe).There is some radiant heat from the hot water passing through the baseboards so it helps to keep it warm.
(My Stove is in the living room in an open plan house.)

The Thermguard is GREAT value for the cost. The Emergency Plumber cost me $250. I was lucky the pipes didnt burst.