Perhaps most EVs ARE just compliance cars....

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
spirilis said:
Waking this thread up from the dead mostly to squee about my new purchase ... 2017 Ford Focus Electric, a compliance car if I've ever seen one. Dealer had 4 in stock (most of any dealer in the Baltimore area) and really didn't have much practical experience about them. It feels like it has a lot of gizmos for the price (which was quite lower than MSRP), HID headlights/standard navigation, remote telematics et al, somewhat generous warranties coming from the ICE world.

We're firmly in the "second car as 100+ mile commuter" territory, with my wife tending to agree that I should drive it (as I can manage the range anxiety better than her).
Click to expand...

You got me to look up the specs....the 'FFE' used to be disdained years ago by the EV crowd for low range and cargo space.

Looks like the 2017 is a nice refresh on the model, now with a 33 kWh battery and a 115 mi EPA (conservative) range and DC fast charging capability (CCS standard). All in all a much more capable vehicle than my 2013 LEAF S+QC (with 24 kWh and 85 mile EPA range).

http://blog.caranddriver.com/better...electric-gets-longer-range-and-fast-charging/

Please give us a report when you've tried it out a bit. You bought rather than leased?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: spirilis
woodgeek said:
You got me to look up the specs....the 'FFE' used to be disdained years ago by the EV crowd for low range and cargo space.

Looks like the 2017 is a nice refresh on the model, now with a 33 kWh battery and a 115 mi EPA (conservative) range and DC fast charging capability (CCS standard). All in all a much more capable vehicle than my 2013 LEAF S+QC (with 24 kWh and 85 mile EPA range).

http://blog.caranddriver.com/better...electric-gets-longer-range-and-fast-charging/

Please give us a report when you've tried it out a bit. You bought rather than leased?
Click to expand...
I did buy. I do a lot of miles and have a habit of keeping cars 'til 200K... I'll admit keeping one of these to 200K is a bit risky, but with a liquid-cooled battery and DCFC I'm willing to give it a try.

The car's awesome. My mileage appears to be about right on with what it's telling me, although I suppose I wouldn't know for sure until I drained it down to the SSN (Stop Safely Now) indicator. After a day of driving it from ~120mi to ~19mi and tallying everything up, it's around 120 miles of range as expected (with occasional A/C usage and occasional >60MPH driving).

My L2 EVSE situation at home is a bit... temporary, using a Bosch Power Xpress and our dryer outlet at the moment.

The day I bought it, I did two DCFC's going to/from the dealer (wife wanted a proper test drive with kids in the car so we took it home on a loaner agreement, then I came back and finished the paperwork to purchase it). The EVgo station was a bit of a ripoff ($9.95 flat fee), the Royal Farms (chargepoint $0.29/kwh) was more reasonable ... that was around $5.50. Power at my house is ~$0.108/kwh which is where I'll get most of juice.

Today I'm doing a 101 total mile trip with no charging in between, just to get a feel for how comfortable I am with it. There are at least 2 DCFC sites on the way home if the estimated mileage gets too close for comfort.
 
Last edited:
I have to say that EVgo is a bit of a rip at $10 for 30 mins, but I love them. Before they came along, I had 20-25 kW (max) DCFC chargers, all a couple miles off the highway, and not well spaced, and not near any amenities.

EVgo is putting in 50 kW chargers in sensible locations (like every 50 miles on interstate rest areas) and major cities (like Brooklyn). Basically, they make it possible for me to drive to NYC and back with two 30 min stops near amenities (and $20) versus FOUR 30-45 min stops in nowheresville (and still nearly $20).
 
  • Like
Reactions: spirilis
Well this sucks, the Bosch EVSE took a dump. Power light is on but status light is blank, and there's a buzzing sound. Good thing I got it from amazon... returning it :)

Ordered a JuiceBox 40A (non-pro or wifi) w/ overnight shipping (so Thursday). I can deal with L1 for tonight (and bum a free 3kw charge at a grocery store near my workplace). There's also a Royal Farms w/ CCS & CHAdeMO about 4mi from work.
 
That's a bummer. We've had a Clipper Creek for 4 yrs service now with no issues.
 
  • Like
Reactions: spirilis
Bolts are available for lease but seem kind of steep. 4K down and $333 a month for a lo mile 36 mo lease. I probably would be way ahead with a good used Volt for 15K. I need to lease to take advantage of the tax credit.
 
That is a bit steep. Maybe wait and see what Nissan comes out with next month.
 
  • Like
Reactions: spirilis and woodgeek
2018 Leaf will be introduced in 6 days. It's expected to have longer range.
 
CaptSpiff said:
Did Nissan just DROP THE MIC on the 2017 LEAF ?????

$10,000 off msrp rebate from Nissan, plus state, plus Fed credits???

Or is Nissan terrified of the 200+ range BOLT?

https://www.psegliny.com/page.cfm/EV/LEAF

I was looking at a 2013 Leaf at the dealer for $9K+. Now I'm thinking $5K as an offer.
Click to expand...

Nissan has been offering incentives like that across the country since the launch of the LEAF in 2011...that's how the lease rates on a $30k MSRP car get down to $200/mo. And how they managed to move close to 120k units of the Gen 1 model in the US, when no one believed that a pure battery EV would work. Way more than all other BEVs combined (although Tesla has been catching up lately).

The same incentives push down the used car prices....the new models are so cheap, the asking price on the used one has to be lower.

This is evidence that Nissan is committed to building a user base, even if they have to spend some money to do it, i.e. not just compliance cars.

GM is NOT offering similar deals on the Bolt...leases have been running more than 50% higher. Like several $k down, and $350/mo, for a low-mileage lease. Of course, I think GM is conservative on the engineering, and want to have low sales until they get lots of real world, 'beta test' data through OnStar. Then they will either ramp incentives and sales, or they won't and it will be a long-range compliance car.

2018 LEAF specs: http://insideevs.com/2018-nissan-leaf-specs-leaked/

Bottom line: 2X the usable range of the original LEAF, 40% more horsepower, same weight, interior volume and MSRP.

2018 LEAF pics: http://insideevs.com/next-gen-nissan-leaf-spotted-dash-displays-265-km165-miles-of-range/
http://insideevs.com/new-nissan-leaf-without-camo/
 
begreen said:
That is a bit steep. Maybe wait and see what Nissan comes out with next month.
Click to expand...
Even if i could get past the butt ugly design , im sure i would never consider a nissan product. Plus i dont think they have put in the thermal mgmt R&D that GM has. Only foreign brand i ever owned was a toyota tacoma and it was totally inferior to the (older) GM trucks iv owned for decades. I just think GM has the better product. IMHO
 
Seasoned Oak said:
Even if i could get past the butt ugly design , im sure i would never consider a nissan product. Plus i dont think they have put in the thermal mgmt R&D that GM has. Only foreign brand i ever owned was a toyota tacoma and it was totally inferior to the (older) GM trucks iv owned for decades. I just think GM has the better product. IMHO
Click to expand...

Tastes differ, of course. I am no fan of Toyota after years driving their cars. Others swear by them.

RE the thermal management issue...I am a Nissan apologist.

They batteries they've sold since 2013 have been solid performers without thermal management. That is not a LACK of engineering...its battery engineering. If you can make a EV-custom battery whose chemistry works well over a wide range of temps, then you don't need a heavy/complex thermal management system. If you are using off the shelf laptop batteries with a narrow temp range spec from the manufacturer (as Tesla did for many years), then you have no choice engineering-wise other than to integrate active heating/cooling, despite it costing more money, weight, pack volume, and complexity. Adding a cooler is not high-tech....its an off the shelf refrigeration unit and a simple controller.

If future batteries are heat proof....temperature management will go the way of the dodo.

Another issue is cooling on road trips with frequent fast charges....the LEAF pack does have air channels for cooling that are passively connected to an intake the drives air into the pack when at speed.
 
Seasoned Oak said:
Even if i could get past the butt ugly design , im sure i would never consider a nissan product. Plus i dont think they have put in the thermal mgmt R&D that GM has. Only foreign brand i ever owned was a toyota tacoma and it was totally inferior to the (older) GM trucks iv owned for decades. I just think GM has the better product. IMHO
Click to expand...
The new design looks much more conventional. I wouldn't be surprised if their battery mgmt. has greatly improved too.
 
Seasoned Oak said:
.... I just think GM has the better product. IMHO
Click to expand...


Did 10 years in a 1980 Chevette, definitely not a better product

OTOH, I like the design of my gen2 volt... not sure it's a better product, but definitely a good design for the transition period. Driving around town is all electric,driving long distance is hybrid

First 2(nearly) years have been without problems
 
FWIW, I've owned Hondas, Toyotas and Nissan cars and trucks. They all were fine vehicles with very little service needed. During that time Ford and Chevy made some really poor products. Now we have a Chevy Volt and a Ford truck. I'm glad American products have raised the bar and are performing well again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seasoned Oak
woodgeek said:
Another issue is cooling on road trips with frequent fast charges....the LEAF pack does have air channels for cooling that are passively connected to an intake the drives air into the pack when at speed.
Click to expand...

Fastest charge times:

Tesla Model 3 (initial release) 170 miles in 30 minutes
Chevy Bolt 90 miles in 30 minutes
Nissan Leaf ???
 
begreen said:
During that time Ford and Chevy made some really poor products. Now we have a Chevy Volt and a Ford truck. I'm glad American products have raised the bar and are performing well again.
Click to expand...

Tesla is putting the heat on the other manufacturers. Their quality, fit/finish, engineering and design are stunning. And they have the highest "Made in America" content. Can you imagine the humiliation the engineers in Detroit must feel when they are out-classed by a fruity company in California?
 
The Japanese rubbed American car mfg's noses in the dirt during the 1980's and 1990s and they responded with better products. Car companies are global now and the bar around the world is higher. That's a good thing imo. FWIW I've had a Tesla owner in our Volt and he was quite complimentary, particularly for a car that cost half of his Tesla's cost.
 
Last edited:
The volt has details that you used to see only in Mercedes-Benz.,e.g. the door hinges are bolted to the frame

Not so with the Chevete.. welded hinges
 
WoodyIsGoody said:
Fastest charge times:

Tesla Model 3 (initial release) 170 miles in 30 minutes
Chevy Bolt 90 miles in 30 minutes
Nissan Leaf ???
Click to expand...

My 2013 LEAF has been managing about 60 miles added highway range in 30 minutes. Not too shabby for 4 year old EV tech.

Not sure about the Bolt around here....the DCFCs all appear to be 50 kW max, good for about 75-80 miles on a Bolt or a Gen 2 LEAF in 30 mins.
 
begreen said:
FWIW I've had a Tesla owner in our Volt and he was quite complimentary, particularly for a car that cost half of his Tesla's cost.
Click to expand...


That's more of a testament that the Tesla owner was polite, mature and classy, not that he thought it compared favorably except on price. Also, electric car owners tend to "get it", or understand the current AGW situation is critical and that all electric cars help. This is no time to get snobbish over Tesla vs. Chevy. But there is little doubt the Tesla (even the Model 3) is superior in terms of engineering, driving dynamics and overall quality. The Chevy is a well made practical car. The Tesla aspires to more.
 
georgepds said:
The volt has details that you used to see only in Mercedes-Benz.,e.g. the door hinges are bolted to the frame

Not so with the Chevete.. welded hinges
Click to expand...

My 2000 Volvo has door hinges bolted to the frame (and it's 18 years old).
 
WoodyIsGoody said:
That's more of a testament that the Tesla owner was polite, mature and classy, not that he thought it compared favorably except on price. Also, electric car owners tend to "get it", or understand the current AGW situation is critical and that all electric cars help. This is no time to get snobbish over Tesla vs. Chevy. But there is little doubt the Tesla (even the Model 3) is superior in terms of engineering, driving dynamics and overall quality. The Chevy is a well made practical car. The Tesla aspires to more.
Click to expand...
That's a possibility though in this case incorrect. He actually was considering getting one for his wife and liked several features, the smaller size and the genset inclusion a lot. Not all are smitten with the T.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/tesla_motors.html
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back