Power or energy Rant

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G

georgepds

Minister of Fire
Nov 25, 2012
878
Does anyone know what this means :

“ And on Thursday, the commission approved the most ambitious energy storage target in the country — 3 GW by 2030 and 1.5 GW by 2025 “

A GW is a unit of power [Energy] / [Time]

A GWh is a unit of energy [Energy]. The h stands for hour as in [Energy] = [Power] * [Time]

You can store energy, you do not store power

Is there some convention here that I’m missing? I expect confusion among local newspaper editors, who major in English and Art History, and for whom STEM is a part of a flower, but this source is utility dive, they know the difference, or maybe they don’t


https://www.utilitydive.com/news/ne...s-100-carbon-free-electricity-by-2040/544587/
 
Nope its just a common screw up.

Although when dealing with large batteries, both power and energy are important. The battery generally can only supply a certain rate of constant power which would be measured in Watts. Its also important to know how long the battery can supply this rate of power which would be Watt hours. There is also something called Peukerts law for batteries that factor in. Peukert's says the faster you pull the power, the less the battery can supply.

Big grid batteries are sold for many purposes. Generally the goal is not power storage as much as short term voltage support to boost voltage. In that case the Wattage rating is the most important. On the other hand if the local grid is constrained and there is not enough transmission into the area the Watthours may be more important. One of the sad parts of the big drive for batteries is that there is an alternative technology using ultracapacitors that is better for short term grid support than batteries. Ultracapacitors can really crank the watts but the duration of storage is minimal. There is also capacity operation, when a big power plant goes down or a big cloud goes over a PV array, there is sudden shortage of power to the grid. There is other power that could be available but its takes time to come on line. A gas fired peaker can probably be up and running in 15 minutes but that means there is shortage on the grid. A battery on the other hand can put power on the grid immediately GE is actually pairing a battery with peaker for this purpose.
 
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peakbagger said:
One of the sad parts of the big drive for batteries is that there is an alternative technology using ultracapacitors that is better for short term grid support than batteries. Ultracapacitors can really crank the watts but the duration of storage is minimal.
Click to expand...
Where are we with ultracap tech these days? Is this based on what I've seen on smaller scale "supercapacitors" where they store high capacitance but there are stiff voltage limits (iirc they work by having super thin dielectrics wrapped tight for enormous surface area but low breakdown voltage)
 
This company got its start in oil and gas and is expanding out to grid applications

(broken link removed to https://www.flexgen.com/product)

Drilling for oil and gas requires large generators running 24/7 just in case they suddenly need power. With an ultracapacitor, they can run fewer diesels and the capacitor supplies the short term load.

The down side is like batteries, capacitors have a limited life span but I think the replacement costs is lower,
 
OK.. granted it is a common error

BUT... WHAT DID THEY MEAN : GW OR GWH????

Does anyone here know?

I get peakbagger's point that both power and energy are important qualities, that's why I ask
 
I'm pretty sure they meant GWH, and the robot proof-reader didn't catch it.
 
Re" There is also something called Peukerts law for batteries that factor in. Peukert's says the faster you pull the power, the less the battery can supply. "

Does that law hold for just lead acid, or also for other chemistry?
 
velvetfoot said:
What it means is that our utility rates will keep going up to pay for this stuff.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily,the cost of on demand response(a big battery)
Offsets the cost of a large peaking plant that sits idle most of the time


The peaking plant is a lot more expensive than the battery.
 
velvetfoot said:
When Andy Cuomo directs energy policy, good things do not happen.
Click to expand...
Oh come on,....
a. Andy declares three upstate Nuclear plants too critical for jobs to allow them to retire; offers them lucrative "make whole" payments for being Zero Emissions (about 2600 MegaWatts saved).
b. Andy declares Nuclear plants too dangerous (kills fish eggs), forcing two downstate Indian Point units to abandon their licence renewal efforts (2000 MegaWatts lost).
c. Andy promotes fast tracking for new combined cycle gas turbine power plant in Middletown NY, as partial replacement for the future lost Nuclear. Presently all built, but tied up in legal battles due to shortcuts taken in the environmental process and shenanigans in the Governor's office. Andy's opposition to NG fracking in NYS and general NG pipeline upgrades made this project questionable from the onset. (750 MegaWatts almost gained).
d. Andy promotes fast tracking for new combined cycle gas turbine power plant in Dover (Pleasant Valley) NY, as partial replacement for the future lost Nuclear. In the initial construction process, building almost on top of the big NG pipeline coming from Canada. This one faces little opposition; looks like lessons were well learned from Middletown. (850 MegaWatts almost gained).
e. Andy promotes fast tracking for 2400 MW new Off-shore Wind Farms located in the NY Bight and south of Nassau County Long Island in the 2018 Master Plan. Two 400Mw wind fields are being readied for "commercial commitments" in calendar 2019. The NY-ISO considers Wind Farms to have a 30% capacity factor (energy they can reliably deliver). (260 MegaWatts may come someday).

See,... Andy's policies almost fully replace the energy lost from the Indian Point Nuclear shutdowns. He's an energy genius!

Rant mode off.....
 
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A peeve of mine too fo sho. But that said, these storage facilities are rated by BOTH energy and power.

If a utility has dispatchable generators that they can bring up in 15 minutes, they care about how much power the battery site can deliver if one of their baseload big guns goes down....but they only care about it having 15 mins of stamina, and they might not care about cycles much either.

Not at all the same thing as a different utility with a lot of renewables wanting to store hours of peak generation and return it daily.
 
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GE is selling a simple cycle LMS100 peaker with integrated storage in CA. The concept is that the battery is dispatched first while the turbine is being started. If the demand is still there the 100 MW turbine takes over in 15 minutes.
 
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