Problems Heating with Englander 10-CDV

[Skye]

I want to start off by saying that I know nothing about pellet stoves.
My husband and I bought a pellet stove last weekend. We bought it from an individual, but they had never used it.
It's not heating like it should be. Our house is smaller than 1000sq ft, I would assume that this stove would heat it.
We need help!!

 

[webbie]

Make sure you follow the manual suggestions for switching from corn to pellets, as that stove is factory set for corn!

http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/10-CDV.pdf

Also, heating an entire house can depend on the weather and other factors. In order to troubleshoot better, we'd need to know other things such as how many pounds of pellets you are burning per hour. A model such as your may produce 5500 BTU into the home for each pound of pellets burnt, so if you are not burning at 4 lbs or more per hour, you will not get very much heat in terms of "whole house heating".

 

[Skye]

Make sure you follow the manual suggestions for switching from corn to pellets, as that stove is factory set for corn!

http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/10-CDV.pdf

Also, heating an entire house can depend on the weather and other factors. In order to troubleshoot better, we'd need to know other things such as how many pounds of pellets you are burning per hour. A model such as your may produce 5500 BTU into the home for each pound of pellets burnt, so if you are not burning at 4 lbs or more per hour, you will not get very much heat in terms of "whole house heating".[/quote

Burning 4 pounds of pellets per hour? That seems like a lot. We're probably going through a bag a day. All I want is my house to be 67 degrees, lol, at this point I'd be happy with 65.
I'll ask my husband if he set it to burn pellets or not.
That picture is my drawing of the room that our stove is in. I'm no artist, lol.

 

[webbie]

If you are going through a bag every 24 hours, that's less than 2 lbs an hour - which is maybe 10,000 BTU per hour. Just to give you something to compare it to, that's less than 2 plug-in electric heaters would produce.

My guess is that two plug-in heaters would not heat your house - even though it is small. In this cold weather, a house such as yours could easily need 15-25,000 BTU per hour, which would require you to burn more pellets!

We've been giving this advice for many years and it seems simple, but - consider that no stove produces any heat at all. That is,, a wood stove does not produce heat and same goes for a pellet stove. Heat is produced only by the fuel. You have to burn a certain amount of fuel to produce that heat!

Seems simple, yes......but that's usually the first order of business. There are very few houses which could be heated fully by 10,000 BTU per hour.

 

[altmartion]

I really wish they would advertise heating capacity different. it is kid of miss leading. I know they read btu's but, when most people see 1500 sqft, generally they say well my house is 1500 sqft, so it has to heat it. I am sure the advertised sqft is tested in ideal conditions and an energy star rated room. If they would just remove the sqft capacity it might make people research a little better. and also will help with over sizing.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

OP needs to contact my service department so we can check out the control system benchmarks and such,

PM me a phone number so i can have you contacted to see what is causing this stove to feed so slowly. that unit should be able to feed faster than the 1.8 lbs/hr which equates to a 24 hour bag.

 

[becasunshine]

I really wish they would advertise heating capacity different. it is kid of miss leading. I know they read btu's but, when most people see 1500 sqft, generally they say well my house is 1500 sqft, so it has to heat it. I am sure the advertised sqft is tested in ideal conditions and an energy star rated room. If they would just remove the sqft capacity it might make people research a little better. and also will help with over sizing.

AMEN. Our Napoleon NPS40 is rated to heat up to 2000 sq. ft. and it produces about 8500 - 42,500 BTUs. I would assume that the 42,500 BTUs are produced when the stove is on its highest feed setting, 5 out of 1-5. The manual recommends rather strongly that the stove not be run on its highest setting nor on its lowest setting, but on a feed setting of 4.

We were sold this stove with the understanding that it has adequate capacity for our house.

We have 1410 sq. ft. of poorly insulated envelope (here I go again, brick/block and plaster with no wall insulation, sorry Regulars and Mods, I type this so many times) that we are in the process of sealing up with caulk, weather stripping and various other means. We are all on one floor with a circular floor plan, so moving heat isn't really an issue for us. Holding onto and stretching those BTUs is definitely an issue.

I've read recently on a Dept. of Energy web site about heating with wood, both cord wood and pellets, that a stove that produces at least 60k BTUs is probably adequate for 2000 sq ft, and that a stove that produces 42k BTUs is probably adequate for 1300 sq. ft. Thus our stove is barely adequate, actually a little undersized, for our house.

I have seriously considered trading it in for a stove that produces more BTUs, but as Webbie says, then we burn more fuel. The intersection of the amount of fuel burned vs. the stove's capacity to put out those BTUs is a function of the stove's feed rate, the capacity of the stove's heat exchanger system to deliver the BTUs from the fuel burned into the living space as heat, and the stove's construction and engineering to handle that amount of BTUs without over-firing the stove, damaging it and creating a fire hazard.

So, instead of trading in for a stove that burns more pellets per hour (more $$$ in fuel) and increases our infrastructure investment ($$$ in the transaction of buying one stove, selling it on the used market for a depreciated price, then buying another stove) we are working on the "hanging on to the BTUs we make" side of the equation.

Skye, you sound like you are in the *exact* same position that we were in 2008 when we bought our stove. Here's what we've done- it's happened in increments, so don't think that you have to do all of this today or tomorrow:

1. Check the insulation level in your attic- most homes have inadequate attic insulation. An insulated box or cover for your attic door helps a lot as well. Be sure to read cautions about insulating around and on top of can lights/inset lights.

2. Caulk caulk caulk and more caulk. Check for leaks and drafts. Door thresholds. Weather stripping. UL approved insulated inserts that go inside your electrical switch and outlet covers- our local Home Depot carries them. Also, child proof safety plugs to plug up the prong holes of the outlets you are not using on a continuous basis. Check every penetration point through your drywall or plaster walls or ceilings that you can safely reach. Many times the electrician or the person who installed the fixture cut a generous hole in the wall or ceiling for that fixture, a hole much bigger than the junction box that services that fixture. The decorative housing or face plate that you see on the wall or ceiling does not stop air leaks, and each of those holes in your walls and ceilings acts as a little chimney, sending your heat up into the attic. Ditto where plumbing fixtures and pipes penetrate the walls into your living space. As usual, cautions apply: do not put any insulating material nor any flammable material into the electrical junction box for any fixture, switch or outlet. Improper insulation over top of and/or around inset/can lights can cause a fire. Educate yourself about the safe way to insulate around electrical fixtures, junction boxes, inset/can lights, etc.

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-sealing-your-home

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/publications/pubdocs/DIY_Guide_May_2008.pdf

3. Replacement windows if your windows are single pane, dated, leaky, etc. If that's not feasible, then weather stripping and window treatments: cell shades, thermal curtain panels, etc. We have cell shades and thermal curtain panels OVER replacement windows.

Each of these steps made a difference in the amount of heat we are able to maintain in the house. The big projects made a difference- but the little projects, sealing up penetration leaks- made a difference as well.

 

[altmartion]

yes, tighten up the envelope as much as possible. caulk and spray foam. look for cob webs, they are a sign of air infiltration. get an energy audit done. they will point you in the right direction and have grants that can help most anybody. the less air infiltration the less btu. I always tell my customers, if they think they are going make improvements, do it before I size the equipment as it may change the size and distribution.

 

[mithesaint]

Get in touch with Mike at Englander ASAP. You're wasting your time doing anything other than talking to Englander. They'll get you squared away.

 

[altmartion]

Get in touch with Mike at Englander ASAP. You're wasting your time doing anything other than talking to Englander. They'll get you squared away.

even improving the homes infiltration?

 

[mithesaint]

even improving the homes infiltration?

The OP came on here looking for info on how to get the stove to produce the proper amount of heat. Englander's customer service will be the best resource for that. It's a 55,000 BTU stove. Even with poor insulation and air sealing, it sounds safe to assume there is a problem with the stove, and that's the main concern.

Now, if the OP came looking for ways to conserve energy and make her home more comfortable and save money, then yes, improving air sealing and insulation will do that. BUT, that's not what the question was. I'm going to assume her insulation and air sealing is ok until she asks otherwise.

 

[Skye]

I know I said my house was less than 1000 square feet, but the area we are heating is less than 500. I should be able to heat that with one bag a day, right?

We are slowly finding all the drafts in our house and taking care of them. Our house is very drafty.

 

[altmartion]

The OP came on here looking for info on how to get the stove to produce the proper amount of heat. Englander's customer service will be the best resource for that. It's a 55,000 BTU stove. Even with poor insulation and air sealing, it sounds safe to assume there is a problem with the stove, and that's the main concern.

Now, if the OP came looking for ways to conserve energy and make her home more comfortable and save money, then yes, improving air sealing and insulation will do that. BUT, that's not what the question was. I'm going to assume her insulation and air sealing is ok until she asks otherwise.

I was replying to your statement that she is wasting her time improving the home. and I am going above and beyond in helping her situation by suggesting more improvements. I always look at the big picture. just because the stove is not working as it should does not mean they are wasting time improving the envelope. even with the stove operating at 100% the house could still be uncomfortable. again I was just asking you if you thought it was still a waste of time ti fix her homes envelope.

 

[becasunshine]

I know I said my house was less than 1000 square feet, but the area we are heating is less than 500. I should be able to heat that with one bag a day, right?

We are slowly finding all the drafts in our house and taking care of them. Our house is very drafty.

I hear ya, Sister. If you are aware that your house is drafty, then it's more drafty than you think.

We have gone a couple of rounds with air sealing this house and we aren't done yet.

I'm just about at the point where I'm brave enough to get an energy audit with a "blown door test" to look for the remaining air leaks. Before now I was afraid to do it- we chose to address the leaks that we knew that we had first.

The second link I posted up there gives some really good photograph how-to's for fixing the more nuanced leaks like electrical penetrations into the attic. We just re-addressed those things this past weekend and we saw an immediate return on that investment of caulk, spray foam and my husband's time and effort. The temperature in the house went up by two degrees immediately.

We have white batting R30 insulation over top of the R19 insulation that's in between the attic joists. The electrical junction boxes are under or surrounded by the original rock wool, the R19 insulation, and the R30 white batting that we added. When we peeled the R30 insulation back, we could see dirt stains on the underside of the batting, over the areas where the electrical fixtures penetrated the ceiling below. Basically, every one of those fixtures acted like a little chimney during the winter, funneling our BTUs into the attic and then outside. In the summer, the attic fan that was installed to keep air circulating in the attic, to keep heat from building up in the attic, was pulling our cooled, conditioned air out of the house through those fixtures, and ditto- right out of the attic.

Insulation will slow the loss of conditioned air but it won't stop leaks.

Air sealing is a situation where little things add up to a lot.

Of course there are caveats about over-sealing a house. You can get professional help and advice for air sealing, if you have questions about doing it right. Our local utility company posts a list of local HVAC and green energy companies with whom they partner to provide energy audits, and the utility offers a rebate to help defer the cost of that audit.

 

[altmartion]

I hear ya, Sister. If you are aware that your house is drafty, then it's more drafty than you think.

We have gone a couple of rounds with air sealing this house and we aren't done yet.

I'm just about at the point where I'm brave enough to get an energy audit with a "blown door test" to look for the remaining air leaks. Before now I was afraid to do it- we chose to address the leaks that we knew that we had first.

The second link I posted up there gives some really good photograph how-to's for fixing the more nuanced leaks like electrical penetrations into the attic. We just re-addressed those things this past weekend and we saw an immediate return on that investment of caulk, spray foam and my husband's time and effort. The temperature in the house went up by two degrees immediately.

We have white batting R30 insulation over top of the R19 insulation that's in between the attic joists. The electrical junction boxes are under or surrounded by the original rock wool, the R19 insulation, and the R30 white batting that we added. When we peeled the R30 insulation back, we could see dirt stains on the underside of the batting, over the areas where the electrical fixtures penetrated the ceiling below. Basically, every one of those fixtures acted like a little chimney during the winter, funneling our BTUs into the attic and then outside. In the summer, the attic fan that was installed to keep air circulating in the attic, to keep heat from building up in the attic, was pulling our cooled, conditioned air out of the house through those fixtures, and ditto- right out of the attic.

Insulation will slow the loss of conditioned air but it won't stop leaks.

Air sealing is a situation where little things add up to a lot.

Of course there are caveats about over-sealing a house. You can get professional help and advice for air sealing, if you have questions about doing it right. Our local utility company posts a list of local HVAC and green energy companies with whom they partner to provide energy audits, and the utility offers a rebate to help defer the cost of that audit.

this is logical thinking, but doesn't always work that way. depending on who the grant comes from they may not offer one if it's not "leaky enough". you probably have a better chance at a grant with a house that is pretty leaky. and they do prioritize. they say they don't but I have been in this biz for over 20nyears and see it happen. fixing the obvious big leaks are fine I just wouldn't get to crazy about it. the audit will tell you the best way to fix it. I just don't want to see you lose out on something for doing the right thing. kind of hard to explain I guess.

 

[slvrblkk]

I know I said my house was less than 1000 square feet, but the area we are heating is less than 500. I should be able to heat that with one bag a day, right?

We are slowly finding all the drafts in our house and taking care of them. Our house is very drafty.

Do you have the OAK installed on the stove?

 

[becasunshine]

Do you have the OAK installed on the stove?

OOOH, GOOD POINT!

Hang in there, Skye, this awesome group is gonna help you out!

 

[tjnamtiw]

I'm surprised among all the helpful hints that no one picked up on the fact that the stove is sitting right in front of a window! Skye, where are you venting the stove? Out the side wall or up through the roof?

And have you called Mike Holton yet?

 

[stoveguy2esw]

I'm surprised among all the helpful hints that no one picked up on the fact that the stove is sitting right in front of a window! Skye, where are you venting the stove? Out the side wall or up through the roof?

And have you called Mike Holton yet?

we're PMing currently trying to set up a time i can speak with the OP to check this thing out

 

[Skye]

I don't know what OAK is? Is that the hose that lets fresh air into the stove? If so then yes.
We boarded up the window and vented it that way. We have those really old low to the floor windows.
I haven't called Mike yet because we're in different time zones.

 

[SwineFlue]

I don't know what OAK is? Is that the hose that lets fresh air into the stove?

Correct... it stands for Outside Air Kit.

 

[Skye]

Ahhh, I do know some things, lol.

Is it realistic to think I can heat a 500 square foot area with one bag of pellets a day?

 

[Dgopetactical]

Ahhh, I do know some things, lol.

Is it realistic to think I can heat a 500 square foot area with one bag of pellets a day?

That stove should heat your WHOLE house not just the 500sf your talking about, you will have cold pockets with sometimes a big temp difference from room to room, that's where you get in to playing with air movement, but to answer your question Yes "IF" it's working properly.

 

[tjnamtiw]

That stove should heat your WHOLE house not just the 500sf your talking about, you will have cold pockets with sometimes a big temp difference from room to room, that's where you get in to playing with air movement, but to answer your question Yes "IF" it's working properly.

One bag a day in Kansas in December?????? Me thinks not!

 

[Skye]

I could turn my electric furnace on and it would be cheaper than two bags a day.