Quad Santa Fe Insert Continuously feeding pellets

[MD_Fepellet]

Greetings,
First time posting, sorry for the lengthy explanation. 2010 pellet insert runs nearly 20 hours a day, burn 3 tons Nov-March, Statesman pellets working much better this year than Cleanfire pacific. I religiously clean behind baffle and scrape pot daily, vacuum weekly. I have searched through the forum for my problem and have not seen this discussed before.

For the second time in 1 year my insert started overfeeding pellets and the only way to stop it is unplug it. This first occurs during normal operation which creates a huge loud fire but would not cause the unit to turn off on its own. Plugging back in starts exhaust fan, but pellets start feeding even without call for heat; so I unplug before the pot fills up. Opening hopper and firebox door stops pellet feed, so I assume hopper and vacuum switches are fine. The first time I checked with my tech and he sold me a replacement control box and it solved the problem right away.

This time I pulled the unit out and cleaned the mechanical area for the first time in 4 years. I replaced the wireless remote therm with the mechanical therm to check the call light; pellets feed regardless of call light on or off. I took apart the control box, inspected the board which appeared fine and fuse intact, and cleaned the gold leads with an eraser. I blew compressed air and checked the female connections for the control box. I jumped snap disc 3 and the problem persists. I did not jump snap disc 2, and I did not check the thermocouple, yet.

Questions:
1. Aside from getting a new control box and new surge protector, is there anything I can do to protect the control box and keep it running longer than 1 year? Insulate it? I know to unplug before installing/ removing control box.

2. Should I also replace snap disc 2 since the fire did not shut down the system on its own?

3. Could snap disc 2 cause the overfeed problem?

4. Should the reset button on snap disc 3 be responsive or springy? Mine rests pulled out or pushed in. Should I replace this also?

Any help or opinions appreciated. Thank you and Happy New Year

 

[kappel15]

Your over feeding can be stopped by lifting hopper lid instead of unplugging stove as you mentioned lower down in post. You can test your snap discs by taking them out and taking a lighter to them and see if they snap closed. They do not regulate your feed. #2 snap disc will shut power off to auger if an overfire occurs. #3 will shut whole stove down if fire or exhaust tries to go up the drop chute. The control box is pretty much the only thing that regulates the timing of the feed drops, once the stove heats up. Besides a surge protector, there is not much else you can do to protect the control box. So since you installed this stove, you have gone thru the original box, plus two others? kap

 

[Arti]

I would suggest looking at the ground wire.
Could be a bad connection anywhere from the breaker panel to the pellet stove.
With a meter it should read near 0 from Neutral (white wire) to Ground(bare or green wire) Check it on both ac volts and ohms.

 

[Former Farmer]

I would suggest looking at the ground wire.
Could be a bad connection anywhere from the breaker panel to the pellet stove.
With a meter it should read near 0 from Neutral (white wire) to Ground(bare or green wire) Check it on both ac volts and ohms.

It could also be a loose neutral. Check it the same way.

Is the stove on its own circuit? If not, any of the outlets, switches, or lights in between the panel to the stove is where you will have to check. If any of your devices (outlets and switches) have the wires stabbed into the back of the device instead of wrapped around the terminal screws, switch those to wrap around the screws.

Instead of a surge protector, you could use a UPS. This would correct any surges, brown outs, power outages.

 

[tjnamtiw]

http://smile.amazon.com/APC-LE1200-...20383260&sr=8-39&keywords=apc+surge+protector

This voltage regulator/surge protector has served me well over the last 4 years. We have many brown outs and short outages. When the voltage comes back on, it will be very high at first until all the loads on the line connect. That's when you need the voltage regulator. A surge protector won't protect from that period of high voltage.

 

[MD_Fepellet]

You can test your snap discs by taking them out and taking a lighter to them and see if they snap closed.

So since you installed this stove, you have gone thru the original box, plus two others? kap

kap - this will be my 3rd control box, the original and one other have apparently failed. Snap discs still snap by the lighter test method. Thanks

 

[MD_Fepellet]

It could also be a loose neutral. Check it the same way.

Is the stove on its own circuit? If not, any of the outlets, switches, or lights in between the panel to the stove is where you will have to check. If any of your devices (outlets and switches) have the wires stabbed into the back of the device instead of wrapped around the terminal screws, switch those to wrap around the screws.

Instead of a surge protector, you could use a UPS. This would correct any surges, brown outs, power outages.

Arti & Farmer - the insert is not on its own circuit. I could run a dedicated circuit as the panel is on the other side of the garage wall, about 30 feet. However, the insert is on one of the original 1970's receptacles with the push on hot and neutral. I have changed many of these in the house as they have shorted other circuits but of course I have forgotten this one. I think this is the only one on this circuit I have not changed. I will check the other items on the circuit, but I am willing to bet it is the old/bad receptacle. Thank you for reminding me of this.

 

[MD_Fepellet]

http://smile.amazon.com/APC-LE1200-Automatic-Voltage-Regulator/dp/B00009RA60/ref=sr_1_39?ie=UTF8&qid=1420383260&sr=8-39&keywords=apc surge protector

This voltage regulator/surge protector has served me well over the last 4 years. We have many brown outs and short outages. When the voltage comes back on, it will be very high at first until all the loads on the line connect. That's when you need the voltage regulator. A surge protector won't protect from that period of high voltage.

Tj -thanks, I'll consider this device. I was looking at something similar for my new fridge as well.

 

[MD_Fepellet]

Thanks all - I'll send a follow up after I change out the receptacle and check the circuit. This problem has occurred twice in the middle of use, after about 1 month into the season, but I guess its never a good time to troubleshoot.

I was also checking for documentation that I thought came with the box with my other insert docs but could not find it. The box dial is set on (7) which corresponds to the blue flashing lights at start up. I have seen in other posts it should be set on (6)? Which number is the correct setting?

 

[tjnamtiw]

6

 

[MD_Fepellet]

Overfeed problem continues ...

I replaced the control box after replacing the receptacle, getting all the discs put back and appliance leveled. The new control box took away the continuous feed problem. The unit ran well for about 36 hours, and much quieter/less rattling. I checked hopper pellet amount the next morning, saw I had a couple hours left before shutting it down to clean and refill. I returned in a couple hours and checked the hopper and closed the lid.

Sometime then this caused the overfeed problem to return. The fire started blazing out of control. I had to open the lid to let it run out. I waited for the unit to shut down. (Without cleaning) I started back up and right away the overfeed problem returned, everything works except the pellet feed is constant. The heating element even started but I stopped the startup so as not to start burning a large pile of pellets.

I had to walk away out of frustration from having just spent $200 on another control box.

- Is it possible the appliance still isn't grounded and static electricity caused a short? I doubt this.
- Could there be a short in the junction box? I did not take that apart to check connections.

- Does anyone have experience with reliability of these control boxes? Do they have their own X- day warranty?

It seems I have no means of recourse, I left a message with the dealer's service dept, I plan to make more calls to dealer and Quad tomorrow, but as to the part it's identified by everyone who sells them as "non-returnable". My service tech has been no help, and do not want to pay him to diagnose.

- Any other guesses as to why after 3 years the first box would fail and after 13 months the second would fail, and now after 2 days a third has failed?

Thanks

 

[Lake Girl]

Start working your way through the wiring inside the stove looking for broken or loose wiring. Check the board for any signs of shorts... Check motors, ignitor with meter... Hope you have kept old boards JIC they can be repaired.

Good luck.

 

[kappel15]

I would check the firepot thermocouple to see if it is damaged and to make sure it is touching the inside end of the cover. I would also check its wire harness. And I would try a capacitor jumper in case the capacitor on the auger is going bad. Part # 230-2150. It may not be the control boxes. If you want, you could send one to me, and I will test it in my stove. Or if you know someone close to test it in their stove, or the dealer. kap

 

[kappel15]

As far as non-returnable goes, lot depends on how much the dealer wants your business. Electrical is still suppose to have a 90 day warranty I thought. But, still depends on if it is the boxes or not. kap

 

[whit]

I would check the firepot thermocouple to see if it is damaged and to make sure it is touching the inside end of the cover.

Maybe my understanding of the thermocouple is wrong. I've been told the thermocouple in a Quad only serves one function: to make sure there's a fire going so the control can keep feeding pellets just if there is. That is, a hot enough thermocouple turns continuous feeding on.

Okay, is this the logic you're suggesting: The stove cycles on, dumps the initial pellets, starts the igniter, and this time it fails to ignite. But due to a bad thermocouple it keeps feeding pellets anyway. Then another ignition cycle starts, but now with far too many pellets initially? The question then would be why the second ignition cycle starts. In my Santa Fe if once an ignition cycle fails, it stays off until the reset button is pressed and released. So could a bad reset button or its circuit be where the problem is here? Or more precisely a bad thermocouple plus a bad reset circuit/button?

With a fire going, the augur just runs on a set cycle from the control box unless a snap disk registers the stove as too hot and shuts it down, right? So the thermocouple has no role there except to stop the feed if the fire goes out - it's a low-temperature shut off, not high temp?

 

[MD_Fepellet]

Maybe my understanding of the thermocouple is wrong. I've been told the thermocouple in a Quad only serves one function: to make sure there's a fire going so the control can keep feeding pellets just if there is. That is, a hot enough thermocouple turns continuous feeding on.

Okay, is this the logic you're suggesting: The stove cycles on, dumps the initial pellets, starts the igniter, and this time it fails to ignite. But due to a bad thermocouple it keeps feeding pellets anyway. Then another ignition cycle starts, but now with far too many pellets initially? The question then would be why the second ignition cycle starts. In my Santa Fe if once an ignition cycle fails, it stays off until the reset button is pressed and released. So could a bad reset button or its circuit be where the problem is here? Or more precisely a bad thermocouple plus a bad reset circuit/button?

With a fire going, the augur just runs on a set cycle from the control box unless a snap disk registers the stove as too hot and shuts it down, right? So the thermocouple has no role there except to stop the feed if the fire goes out - it's a low-temperature shut off, not high temp?

whit
My assessment is the timing and process occurs as normal except for the feeding of pellets. Pellet feeding occurs even with thermostat turning call light off. Pellet feeding stops if door or hopper opened. If I allowed ignition, the fire would be huge. Its more like the call for initial feed for pellets for start up and ignition goes continuously.

With this, it seems more likely the reset than the thermo

 

[whit]

whit
My assessment is the timing and process occurs as normal except for the feeding of pellets. Pellet feeding occurs even with thermostat turning call light off. Pellet feeding stops if door or hopper opened. If I allowed ignition, the fire would be huge. Its more like the call for initial feed for pellets for start up and ignition goes continuously.

With this, it seems more likely the reset than the thermo

Do you have an external thermostat, so you're saying pellet feeding continues even when that's off? When the thermostat's off my Santa Fe doesn't feed pellets at all, not to keep a fire going, and not if the reset button's pressed either. Mine is an older model than yours though, as is evident in there being no off switch on the hopper door. The logic may have changed.

In my case with a setback thermostat, if it shuts down just after loading pellets, before igniting them, due to reaching the setback time for the night, then the next ignition gets a double load of pellets. Hasn't been a problem. But if yours is overloading pellets before ignition, then that does seem like the thermocouple's not doing its job. There's the initial dump of pellets, then ignition, and no more pellets should feed until the thermocouple confirms the fire has started - unless you press the reset switch, which will feed more, but again just an initial amount. So yeah, I guess if the reset circuit is just always activated that would keep the pellets feeding too.

If I understand it right (just a beginner at this stuff) the thermocouple puts out a current when temperature is reached. It's the reaction between two different metals it's made of that does that. After many cycles that reaction can happen at the wrong temperature. So a bad thermocouple could signal a fire's presence when it's not there, which would turn on continuous feed.

I admit I've never fully learned to read the lights on the control box.

 

[MD_Fepellet]

Start working your way through the wiring inside the stove looking for broken or loose wiring. Check the board for any signs of shorts... Check motors, ignitor with meter... Hope you have kept old boards JIC they can be repaired.

Good luck.

Have you had many complaints about Quads not being properly grounded?

 

[MD_Fepellet]

UPDATE:

I had an electrical engineer looking at it with me for 3 hours today. His assessment after taking apart the old box and junction box was that the ground is not properly established as factory wired. That is why the additional ground for the thermo connection is provided with a new control box, as if Quad has recognized this fault in its wiring. The documentation I received with the new control box did not address the need to add this additional ground and it was not apparent until it was discovered missing at the control box connector tabs. Now that the ground is in place, I'll have to try again with another control box.

The current situation is that at start up, the auger no longer starts turning until the thermo calls for heat. Then once the auger starts turning, it does not stop and runs through the ignition cycle.

 

[Lake Girl]

Have you contacted Quadrafire with this information? Do you still have the instructions that came with the new control box?