Quadrafire Classic Bay False starts ONLY below 32 Deg F or Freezing

[Don2222]

Hello

It seems that the Brand New 3 prong Electrical AC cord did fix false starts above freezing at normal operating temps.
See pic of new and old AC cords here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/91793/

However the colder weather brought back the false starts. Now these false starts ONLY happen below freezing and in this test case it was 26 Deg F inside and outside the shed!!

Is this a real problem that many people would have, well maybe not.

So I will try to make it better but there maybe no guarentees here.

So what happens?
Not enough pellets are dumped into the burn pot below freezing to start the stove.
The hopper is full and the ignitor lights and warms the pot.
My pic shows the pellets did burn down.

Hitting reset does dump more pellets into the fire pot and then it does lite and run fine
Then the fire in the pot brings the stove and the room up to normal operating temps and it runs fine off the thermostat from then on.

Although it does take longer for the ignitor to warm the ductile iron fire pot below freezing, I do not think it is a big factor since there is not enough pellets in the pot for starting but I will see and be aware of this.

Note: This older feed motor does not use a capacitor.
See https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/91938/

So at 26 Deg F, I tried wiggling the molex connector to the feed motor and it did seem to help. The auger turned more but not quite enough.

So my next attempt for a remedy will be to get some Conductive Greese for all electrical connections that bring power to the Auger Motor. Since the motor does seem to operate fine, the weakest point that I can see is the spade connectors, the molex connector and even the new AC cord connected to the older stove male tabs.

Conductive greese is use more in colder climates like Alaska. Can anyone add to this?

Maybe a new main fuse would help?

 

[DexterDay]

The bottom of that pot looks pretty dirty Don. Shouldnt be that black or have that much build-up on the sidewall?? I can run for over a week or two, before the ash build-up on the sides looks like that. Even then, its a grey to white color, not dark brown to black.....

How much is a new auger?? I would want it to be in working condition before I sold it. That means starting at 32* outside.

2 problems here.

1.- Getting enough fuel to start up. (Fuel feed system, Auger, Capacitor?)

2.- Burning properly, once it does start. (High EVL, Leaky Gasket, Etc?)

 

[Don2222]

Hello Dexter

It may not work quite as good as yours because yours is newer with the new type feed motor and maybe a few other parts, However there are items that can be worked on.

The feed system seems to work well above freezing. I wish you could try your stove at 26 Deg and see how it starts?? But It may be too much of an inconvienece!! LOL

Anyways
When it is running the door and ash pan gaskets are tight. The door gasket is a new graphite one that works very well!

I know the EVL is 15 but it seems fine. The fire pot is older and may not be quite the same as yours, you may have an improved ductile cast iron formula??

However the control box timing may be off from older electronic parts with drifted tolarences
Maybe a new control box would bring all that up to par.

The feed system is what I want to concentrate on here. I just think where the auger stops, it is not the auger motor but weak connections in the cold weather like the AC cord that was bad due to loose warn tarnish connectors.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Just my opinion, but I think you are REALLY grasping at straws to think a new electrical cord solves your problems above freezing and that conductive grease will make the auger motor run better. I wonder whether the elusive capacitor is in the junction box or internal to the motor itself. The only other major possibility is that you have the feed gate to far closed and bridging is occuring for the pellets you're using. I know we've been down this path before but it sure points that way. I had MANY misfires on my Castile when I first got it but finally I learned that the feed rate has to match the pellets I was using, which were both long and short. I had bridging both at the feed plate and at the top of the chute. Haven't had the reversing auger YET! Finally, it could be your auger is slipping on the motor shaft.

That's where I would look and NOT at the thermometer.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

Well, last night I discussed this issue with an Electrical Engineering collegue that used to work on the advanced Radar Vehicle for the Military. There are thousands of Molex connectors for all the electical connections that must with stand the dessert temps and polar temps.

Anyway, I told him about when I wiggled the Molex inline plug that the Feed Motor plugs into at 26 Deg F and the Auger started turning he confirmed that he thought that was the culprit. There may be other issues but this should be fixed first!!

So I went to the Electric Supply store and asked for conductive grease but I got a product called DE-OX

Anyone ever try this? Did Anyone ever try starting their Quadrafire Stove below Freezing??

(broken link removed)

 

[Don2222]

Hello

I am a little dissapointed with the DE-OX which seems to be the same as the Auto Part Stores Permatex DiElectric grease for spark plugs etc. My issue with this DiElectric Grease is that it was designed to stop corrosion and seal the electrical connection from Air and Mosture to perevent the corrosion. However there are no addatives in the grease to increase electrical conductivity!

Permatex DiElectric Grease
see (broken link removed to http://www.jpcycles.com/product/900-315?utm_source=none&utm;_term=&gclid=CP__jIGIya4CFcHb4AodTyb0CA)

So further research brough me to grease with addatives such as silver and copper particles. They seem to be more used in Never-Seez compounds for venting and HVAC applications.

So I finally found what seems to be really good stuff. Carbon Conductive Grease!!
So I put a dab of the DiElectric Grease on the Molex connector and will try later tonight or in the AM when it is very cold. If that does not help which I think it does, the Carbon Conductive Grease is on Order!!

Carbon Conductive Greese
https://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70125869

 

[nate379]

De Ox we usually use that on main lugs on a house panel cause usually it's aluminum.

I have never had trouble with something electric cause of the cold other than my air compressor which is in a non-heated building. Couple times this winter it tripped the breaker. Too much of a start load on it when it's -20* I guess.

 

[Don2222]

Just my opinion, but I think you are REALLY grasping at straws to think a new electrical cord solves your problems above freezing and that conductive grease will make the auger motor run better. I wonder whether the elusive capacitor is in the junction box or internal to the motor itself. The only other major possibility is that you have the feed gate to far closed and bridging is occuring for the pellets you're using. I know we've been down this path before but it sure points that way. I had MANY misfires on my Castile when I first got it but finally I learned that the feed rate has to match the pellets I was using, which were both long and short. I had bridging both at the feed plate and at the top of the chute. Haven't had the reversing auger YET! Finally, it could be your auger is slipping on the motor shaft.

That's where I would look and NOT at the thermometer.

Hello tinamtiw

I did have very cold starting problems with the Pelpro Bay View in the shed and Pelpro Support even admitted there was an issue!!
See https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/88673/

In this case the quadrafire's control box works differently so there seems to be NO vacuum issues when cold starting. That is a good thing.

The issue here is the low current connections. The new AC cord really did help alot above freezing, I know since it always started and wiggling the OLD AC cord caused a shutdown!

So I now understand that Di-Electric grease is used mostly in high voltage or high current applications where some are outside in the weather. Common examples are on the 100 or 200 amp main wires to a home's circuit panel. Also car spark plug wires around the boot and the car's battery terminals.

Carbon Conductive Grease is used more in low current and more sensitive applications mostly inside such as UPS battery connections and Solar Battery connections.

I still say the wood pellet stove in the very cold shed is more unique but may happen more in Canada!!

So I really do feel it will help alot in this situation and an early problem I had with the Avalon Astoria dead Auger now that I think about it
If I coat the limit switch quick disconnect tabs with the Carbon Conductive Grease the problem below will never happen again

See
Fired up the Pellet Stove last night and Auger was Dead as a Door Nail ! Yellow 4 Troubleshoot Light of no help!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/80407/

 

[tjnamtiw]

if it shutdown when you fiddled with the power cord, then it definitely pointed to a bad connection either in the cord or the male socket on the stove. Yes, dielectric grease is now used on just about every connection on a car for water/humidity protection.
If you're going to use the graphite grease, don't forget to LIGHTLY coat the control box terminals since they could be a source of your problem too.

 

[Don2222]

if it shutdown when you fiddled with the power cord, then it definitely pointed to a bad connection either in the cord or the male socket on the stove. Yes, dielectric grease is now used on just about every connection on a car for water/humidity protection.
If you're going to use the graphite grease, don't forget to LIGHTLY coat the control box terminals since they could be a source of your problem too.

Thanks about the control box terminals.
Since the stove is mostly 120 vac it is not really low voltage so the Di-Electric grease would prbably help. However the Carbon Conductive Grease still would be the best. So I checked the FedEx tracking and the Grease was shipped from Allied Electronics and was at the FedEx terminal in Fort Worth TX so it should be here in NH in a few days. Only problem is the forecast after Monday and Tuesday is for warmer weather. So I may have to weight a long time to test it!!

However I can still test the non-conductive DiElectric grease Monday and Tuesday and if that works, we know what is going on here!

I will keep you posted Thanks again!

 

[nate379]

If you have to wiggle stuff to get it working :red: that means it's likely arcing or getting hot from a poor connection. Arcing and heat are a good way to start a fire.

The grease is used on aluminum connections "no-ox" in house wiring to prevent corrosion.

Same reason on car wiring... grease in the connection keeps moisture out.

I'm going to assume that your stove is in a dry location.

 

[Don2222]

If you have to wiggle stuff to get it working :red: that means it's likely arcing or getting hot from a poor connection. Arcing and heat are a good way to start a fire.

The grease is used on aluminum connections "no-ox" in house wiring to prevent corrosion.

Same reason on car wiring... grease in the connection keeps moisture out.

I'm going to assume that your stove is in a dry location.

Yes Nate you have a very good point.

The stove is in a dry location however when going from below freezing to above freezing their can be some condensation.

Anyways, that is why when I investigated NO-OX and the Automotive equivilant of Permatex Di-Electric grease, I thought that would help but may not be the best in this situation. Since I wiggled the Molex connector at 26 Deg F and saw the Auger turn that is a bad connection at that temp. I think that many stove manufacturers do not do low temp testing. I was really surprised to findout Canadian Comfort Ind who makes Pelpro and Danson stoves really have a low temperature issue with not having enough vacuum to close the vacuum switch!! They sell many of those stoves in the artic canadian air!! That is not good to hear but really proves my point. When Quadrafire choose this type of Molex connector for their auger connection I am sure low temperatures were not a consideration!! A better connector should be in this stove's design!!

So I am not going to change the design here since I may sell the stove. So since I did find a grease that not only keeps moisture out but also conducts I will use it! It is Carbon Conductive grease I ordered from Allied Electronics in Fort Worth Texas. Funny they never said they were associated with Radio Shack a few years ago. I think they got the bad part of that deal!

This Carbon Conductive grease should fill the voids in the irrecgular shaped Molex Pins and do the job! I will also use it on the spade (Quick Disconnects) lug connectors in the stove as well since my Avalon Astoria limit switch connector failed last fall during the first firing for the season!! This was under normal conditions!! The stove manufacturers really need to address these connection problems, but in the meantime I really believe I have found the answer in the Carbon Conductive Grease!!

So far the temps did not go under freezing around here but hoping I can test this stuff before spring!! Who knows?? In the mean time if fires every time above freezing now with the new AC cord!!

Thanks for your help

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

(broken link removed to http://www.axco.com/ceramic-wire-nuts/) one way to make those connections.

Also solder and tape.

 

[tjnamtiw]

http://www.axco.com/ceramic-wire-nuts/ one way to make those connections.

Also solder and tape.

%-P

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I am as much a fan of molex, quick connects, and other such short cuts as I am of plastic low limit snap discs.

Which is not at all. Call me an old toot.

 

[smoke show]

Call me an old toot.

:zip:

 

[pelletash]

Wow. With all the hassle you've gone through with that stove you could have spent the money on insulation, heated the shed with an electric space heater and saved yourself some aggravation and probably a few bucks to boot.

In all seriousness, I hope you get it figured out. You have a lot more patience than I do. I'd just light the sucker manually and go back in the house for 20 minutes or so.

 

[Don2222]

http://www.axco.com/ceramic-wire-nuts/ one way to make those connections.

Also solder and tape.

I like the Scotchloks a little better.

(broken link removed to http://www.ebay.com/itm/3m-Red-Scotch-Locks-Wirenuts-Qty-300-/230735695006)

However nothing beats solder and cloth or vinyl electrical tape!!

 

[Don2222]

Wow. With all the hassle you've gone through with that stove you could have spent the money on insulation, heated the shed with an electric space heater and saved yourself some aggravation and probably a few bucks to boot.

In all seriousness, I hope you get it figured out. You have a lot more patience than I do. I'd just light the sucker manually and go back in the house for 20 minutes or so.

Yes, it is a hassle but it does apply to all pellet stoves. Molex connectors and Quick Disconnects (Spade Lug type connectors) are a huge part of pellet stoves and can and will fail!! Vibration, Temperature changes, moisture and corrosion will take their toll on these connectors. Even though it has been alot of hassle, It did not cost much and once I learn how to improve and prevent these failures I will really be on top of this!!

I still intend to insulate the shed but if I coat the connectors with conductive grease for $13.00 and have less trouble in the long run it will be well worth it!!

That carbon conductive grease just cannot get here too soon! It is supposed to be real cold tonight and tomorrow night and the grease is somewhere between the FedEx Terminal in Ft Worth TX and here right now!!

 

[heat seeker]

I've use Scotchloks at work for many years, never a problem in the shop - if they were installed properly.
But the Bear is right - nothing beats a properly soldered and taped joint.

 

[3650]

maybe the temp of the stove is outside the parameters the manufacture designed it for. you kick it on and the initial charge of pellets doesnt bring the thermocoupler up to temp since its colder then normal. it shuts down. then you reset and it gives another charge of pellets to a already warmed pot which then satisfies the thermocoupler. how bout moving the thermocoupler closer to the flame? sounds to me like the issuevis with the thermocoupler. is the cover on it set right? i think its particular about how the cover is located relative to the thermocouplet itself.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Wow. With all the hassle you've gone through with that stove you could have spent the money on insulation, heated the shed with an electric space heater and saved yourself some aggravation and probably a few bucks to boot.

In all seriousness, I hope you get it figured out. You have a lot more patience than I do. I'd just light the sucker manually and go back in the house for 20 minutes or so.

You just have to understand what makes an engineer tick, they are a strange lot.

 

[smoke show]

And that's the understatement of the year...

 

[Don2222]

maybe the temp of the stove is outside the parameters the manufacture designed it for. you kick it on and the initial charge of pellets doesnt bring the thermocoupler up to temp since its colder then normal. it shuts down. then you reset and it gives another charge of pellets to a already warmed pot which then satisfies the thermocoupler. how bout moving the thermocoupler closer to the flame? sounds to me like the issuevis with the thermocouple. is the cover on it set right? i think its particular about how the cover is located relative to the thermocouplet itself.

Thanks for going over that, but the Thermocouple which converts the rise in flame temperature to milli-volts. 0 to 30 milli-volts in this stove, I believe kicks in after the start-up cycle. The false starting in this case really does not complete the start-up cycle. The auger does not run for 95 secs and dump in enough pellets into the burn pot for ignition.

Since the auger is not putting enough pellets in the fire pot to light a good fire, the only other possibility that you made me think of is there is not enough vacuum to close the vacuum switch and that would stop the auger from feeding enough pellets. So after fixing the Molex connector if the problem still persists I will check into that. That is the low temperature problem the Pelpros have that their support department admits too!!

 

[DexterDay]

And that's the understatement of the year...

;-P