I don't think so. The fossil fuel industry gets about $549 billion in the US. Cut that off. We have a glut of oil and gas so let the market determine where it wants new energy to come from.
Reset time, now what
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The dollar number you quote could be less than that, or even more depending on your definition of subsidy. I'm sure if you compare to green energy subsidies (apples to apples definition of subsidies) it would be a very large number as well.
You didn't answer my question. If you're for ending all subsidies, why do you moan and groan any time there is a gov't cut of a green energy subsidy?
Not to imply anyone is a barnyard animal but
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I'd really like to see the source of that dollar figure, your number is about 25 times larger than those that I can find.
The fact is fossil energy receives far lower subsidies per energy unit than renewables do. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't pursue renewable energy, but I believe the money is better spent on research and development of new technologies, rather than installing solar panels on johnny tax payers house.
Oops I was off by 100mil, that should be $649 billion. This number was from the IMF study of global fossil fuel subsidies.
United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education
Amidst reports of a continuing climate crisis, an International Monetary Fund study released last month shows that USD$5.2 trillion was spent globally on fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. The United States has spent more subsidizing fossil fuels in recent years than it has on defense or education.
www.forbes.com
Oops I was off by 100mil, that should be $649 billion. This number was from the IMF study of global fossil fuel subsidies.
United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education
Amidst reports of a continuing climate crisis, an International Monetary Fund study released last month shows that USD$5.2 trillion was spent globally on fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. The United States has spent more subsidizing fossil fuels in recent years than it has on defense or education.
I hope you actually read the IMF study that this Forbes article quotes. It includes things like the lack of a carbon tax as a subsidy. This really isn't a dollar value the government can divert to renewables because it's money that doesn't exist, so realistically not a subsidy. Now I see why the number is so much larger than most others I have seen.
It is helpful to distinguish two different notions of fossil fuel subsidies. One is a narrow measure, termed pre-tax subsidies, reflecting differences between the amount consumers actually pay for fuel use and the corresponding opportunity cost of supplying the fuel. In contrast, a broader measure, termed post-tax subsidies, reflects differences between actual consumer fuel prices and how much consumers would pay if prices fully reflected supply costs plus the taxes needed to reflect environmental costs and revenue requirements. The post-tax measure therefore corresponds to the definition of subsidies used in this paper
By component, underpricing for local air pollution is still the largest source (48 percent in 2015), while that for global warming is similar to earlier estimates (24 percent), followed by broader environmental costs of road fuels (15 percent), undercharging for general consumption taxes (7 percent) and for supply costs (7 percent). Energy pricing reform therefore remains largely in countries own interest, given that about three quarters of the benefits are local.
As it should be. The true cost of fossil fuel is rarely accounted for, even before externalities. Here are some of the hidden costs.
We have very different definitions of the word subsidy then. Failing to charge a carbon tax is not a subsidy, even if it was a subsidy (which it isn't) then it would be a subsidy to the consumer not the producer.
Most people don't have a clue about what happens when a carbon tax is imposed, the cost of everything goes up, as everything is either made using fossil energy and/or transported with it. It really hurts the lower class as they don't have enough leftover income to absorb these costs. Or you could do like Canada and charge the carbon tax and then just give it back at year end tax time, which really solves nothing but to satisfy "green thinking" zeolots.
Most people don't have a clue about what happens when a carbon tax is imposed, the cost of everything goes up, as everything is either made using fossil energy and/or transported with it. It really hurts the lower class as they don't have enough leftover income to absorb these costs. Or you could do like Canada and charge the carbon tax and then just give it back at year end tax time, which really solves nothing but to satisfy "green thinking" zeolots.
Regarding subsidies for energy, take a look at the IEA data from the past several years and you'll see that fossil fuels still receive many billions in subsidies worldwide and significantly more than renewables.
And their data, as far as I can tell with a quick review, doesn't include the huge military expenditures that the mostly western powers spend securing fossil fuel deposits and transportation routes out of places like the Middle East, South America, Central Asia, Africa, Indonesia, etc....Just the cost for securing the Persian Gulf alone for the past 50 years is astronomical. All payed for by the American tax payer. It's partly why the US Navy is as large and expensive as it is.....To secure trade routes the world over.
Now, I'm not suggesting these expenditures aren't without benefit, especially years ago before renewable technology was as advanced as it is now and safe and secure trades routes are important for goods well beyond just fossil fuels. But these are massive subsidies that continue to cost tax payers huge amounts of money.
Some suggest we just need to shift the balance as we shift away from fossil fuels. Continue some level of subsidy for carbon based energy, but swing the pendulum more toward renewables. Of course everything is up in the air at the moment. But when we return to a functioning economy, one way to rev it up would be a huge infrastructure investment in renewable energies. S
Starting with a "Smart" 21st century electric grid incorporating mini-grids; advanced battery storage; solar build outs on both an industrial and residential scale; industrial and residential wind installations; expanded electrical automobile subsidies to both manufactures and purchasers; subsidies for affordable net zero housing; subsidies for energy efficient mini-split HVAC systems and geo-thermal....The list is endless.
And their data, as far as I can tell with a quick review, doesn't include the huge military expenditures that the mostly western powers spend securing fossil fuel deposits and transportation routes out of places like the Middle East, South America, Central Asia, Africa, Indonesia, etc....Just the cost for securing the Persian Gulf alone for the past 50 years is astronomical. All payed for by the American tax payer. It's partly why the US Navy is as large and expensive as it is.....To secure trade routes the world over.
Now, I'm not suggesting these expenditures aren't without benefit, especially years ago before renewable technology was as advanced as it is now and safe and secure trades routes are important for goods well beyond just fossil fuels. But these are massive subsidies that continue to cost tax payers huge amounts of money.
Some suggest we just need to shift the balance as we shift away from fossil fuels. Continue some level of subsidy for carbon based energy, but swing the pendulum more toward renewables. Of course everything is up in the air at the moment. But when we return to a functioning economy, one way to rev it up would be a huge infrastructure investment in renewable energies. S
Starting with a "Smart" 21st century electric grid incorporating mini-grids; advanced battery storage; solar build outs on both an industrial and residential scale; industrial and residential wind installations; expanded electrical automobile subsidies to both manufactures and purchasers; subsidies for affordable net zero housing; subsidies for energy efficient mini-split HVAC systems and geo-thermal....The list is endless.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
I don’t think urban people have a problem with light pollution. They are the problem. They want more street lights, taller buildings with windows blasting light, more roads full of headlights. They live in the city because they like this stuff.
It’s those of us near the urban areas that suffer from their spilling light pollution. As you continue farther away to rural areas the light pollution is adequately diluted to the point of non existence.
Besides , top ten worries of urban people will be filled with critical problems like being randomly stabbed in the neck.
It’s those of us near the urban areas that suffer from their spilling light pollution. As you continue farther away to rural areas the light pollution is adequately diluted to the point of non existence.
Besides , top ten worries of urban people will be filled with critical problems like being randomly stabbed in the neck.
Light pollution has little to do with this thread. The quarantine has not affected this much I think. Air pollution however, is quite different. Many people are having views they have not seen in their lifetimes with the shutdown.
themindunleashed.com
Himalayas Visible for First Time in 30 Years From Some Parts of India as Lockdown Sees Drop in Pollution
For many residents, the sight is something which they have never witnessed in their entire lives.
themindunleashed.com
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I brought up light pollution because it has been reduced from less traffic, less business lights on, and better air quality. Folks have been seeing so much activity in the night sky they were worried at first that something was wrong. My friends back in NC report seeing the night sky more clearly than they ever have before.Light pollution has little to do with this thread. The quarantine has not affected this much I think. Air pollution however, is quite different. Many people are having views they have not seen in their lifetimes with the shutdown.
Himalayas Visible for First Time in 30 Years From Some Parts of India as Lockdown Sees Drop in Pollution
For many residents, the sight is something which they have never witnessed in their entire lives.
For those interested here is a pretty cool app to see particulate levels world wide. If you use the menus in the bottom left you can also see things like wind, temperature, ocean currents, atmospheric pollution etc.
earth.nullschool.net
earth :: a global map of wind, weather, and ocean conditions
See current wind, weather, ocean, and pollution conditions, as forecast by supercomputers, on an interactive animated map. Updated every three hours.
Not hung up on it but find it amusing that people act like they are being harmed. During the virus many large buildings and stadiums in urban areas are lighting up their facilities in tribute to first responders. Many of the people that complain about light pollution need lighting for safety. I live in the country and and look to the glow of city lights on the horizon and it is a reminder that I would never want to be part of that. I have to go to work in the suburbs and drive to the airport to fly for work. The congestion, the smell, and general rudeness of the city is repugnant. People complaining about light pollution, really you live in a congested place with crime, violence, and low quality of life and complain about the night sky being filled with lights. Just like the climate change if you complain about light pollution and you leave the porch light on you are part of the problem you are complaining about.
Have never heard of a cause of death listed as light pollution, just saying. We live in a world with a victim mentality, most people are the cause of their own suffering.
Have never heard of a cause of death listed as light pollution, just saying. We live in a world with a victim mentality, most people are the cause of their own suffering.
I think most people are quite eagerto jump back into the 'old normal'. For the average person not much will have changed. Hopefully.
Many are putting their own renewable projects on hold. My parents were looking at doing a ground mount solar install at their house, not now with the financial uncertainty. We were also looking at trading in our daily driver for a plug in hybrid SUV (Toyota Rav4 Prime) also not considering that anymore.
semipro
Minister of Fire
Actually, the uncertainty has strengthened our resolve to ensure our own personal resilience. We've invested in solar PV and an electric vehicle powered by it. We can drive and live at home even if FF supplies are cut or the grid goes down. Our gardening plans have expanded and I've resolved to work from home more. I think all these things will have a positive environmental impact.
I believe others may seek similar paths.
I hope also that personal distancing and the positive environmental impacts of COVID 19 related stay home restrictions will lead others to realize that human population growth is just not sustainable, for the good of the ecosystem and for ourselves as a species.
I believe others may seek similar paths.
I hope also that personal distancing and the positive environmental impacts of COVID 19 related stay home restrictions will lead others to realize that human population growth is just not sustainable, for the good of the ecosystem and for ourselves as a species.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Agreed. I think travel will drop across the board. Where will folks go when they can't be close to each other? I think demand for cheap disposable consumer goods will also go down. Since we live on the edge of nothing we are doubling down our efforts to be grid independent.
semipro
Minister of Fire
It's up and running. Most of the power produced now is going to the grid. We're waiting on a county inspection before we net meter. COVID 19 is creating some challenges there. Inspectors aren't allowed to enter occupied structures. I'll install the batteries after inspection,, primarily for backup power.
I've been driving our EV that is charged when we have sunlight -- an extremely satisfying feeling.
I just got a spare 6 KW grid tied inverter left over from Solar City. SC was taken over by Tesla and this inverter was branded as Solar City so the third party manufacturer dumped a bunch of them on the market. A bonus is that its actually a hybrid inverter ready for a high voltage battery pack to be hooked up to it. It was designed for high voltage DC version of the Powerwall battery but I think an LG will also fit it. It can island and can also export the battery if the right permissions are available.
I am keeping an eye on Tesla forums to see if anyone figures out how to hook it to an old EV battery. My utility does nor offer incentives for battery dispatch but one of the other utilities in the state does so I only need enough battery to buffer the PV versus long term storage. Mass offers some very generous incentives for battery dispatch that effectively pays for about half the battery over a few years. I had two large institutional projects that got money up front for flow batteries but both went by the wayside for various reasons but hope to get a Lithium battery installed in a current project to get some hands on experience.
I am keeping an eye on Tesla forums to see if anyone figures out how to hook it to an old EV battery. My utility does nor offer incentives for battery dispatch but one of the other utilities in the state does so I only need enough battery to buffer the PV versus long term storage. Mass offers some very generous incentives for battery dispatch that effectively pays for about half the battery over a few years. I had two large institutional projects that got money up front for flow batteries but both went by the wayside for various reasons but hope to get a Lithium battery installed in a current project to get some hands on experience.
