running an Englander IP on a generator

[btbeam]

I have a 30amp transfer switch for my generator. Is it OK to run my stove off that generator? Thanks

 

[stoveguy2esw]

the stove will max out at just under 300 watts (when igniter is on) so power isn't an issue , but 2 things and they are extremely importsnt

1. make damned sure you have a good surge protector between the stove and the genny

and 2 , the genny MUST supply power in "pure sine wave' not "modified sine wave" as the control board will not "like the modified sine wave power and you will have operational issues

 

[btbeam]

What constitutes a good surge protector. I think mine is rated at 900 joules

 

[stoveguy2esw]

What constitutes a good surge protector. I think mine is rated at 900 joules

that's fine

 

[btbeam]

My generator is a westinghouse I just got it in the fall not sure if it's the correct power

 

[mchasal]

Post a model number and I'm sure we can figure it out. Typically the bigger generators are not pure sinewave though.

 

[Jason Knapp]

I looked into the whole issue surrounding generators. After speaking to our electrical instructor at the powerplant that I work at, I felt a lot better about not having to invest in an expensive inverter generator. I have a Briggs and Stratton 10,000 surge/8000 running watt generator. The regulator that is used in the generator head is a very high quality piece and sends a pretty clean signal. Typically the bigger generators dont have an issue. It seems that the smaller generators tend to have an issue when they are really loaded.
I was also told to steer clear of the Harber Freight generators if operating sensitive equipment. Although I'm sure they will do fine in an emergency situation.

 

[btbeam]

the model number for the generator is
WH6500E
Its a westinghouse 6500/8000
Thanks for the help

 

[btbeam]

I have attached the spec sheet to see if that helps. It says something about there VR System. Thanks

 

[mchasal]

Well, I couldn't find anything more specific. All I can say is that anything that is "pure sine wave" is pretty clear about stating it. Typically it's an inverter generator that provides that but I'm not sure if there are other methods. So, unless some evidence pops up to the contrary, I would assume that it is not pure sine wave.

As Mike says above, your stove requires pure sine wave. Not sure what actually happens if you feed it something else.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

As Mike says above, your stove requires pure sine wave. Not sure what actually happens if you feed it something else.

causes the board to have odd random errors like a fail to start error 2 hours into a fire or an over temp limit when the stove is still in startup, have seen the unit just cycle from SU to SD then back repeatedly. it just makes the board behave badly

 

[Charlie0664]

I run my Eco 45 with a 7500W generator.

The power went out for a couple of days this winter so I had to fire up my generator. I have a plug in my
garage I can plug my generator into and power my house, it powers lights, refrigerator, water pump, and all the
plug-ins in the room where the pellet stove is located. I run all that on a 7500W and my stove run fine.

 

[Madcodger]

Typically the bigger generators dont have an issue. It seems that the smaller generators tend to have an issue when they are really loaded.

I'm sorry to contradict, but that's just not accurate. I think you may have been talking about two different things in that conversation with the electrician, and that caused the mixup.

It's not that smaller generators are good or bad up to their rated load capacity, or that larger generators "don't have an issue". It's really a matter of what the powered equipment requires, as noted above, and the smoothness of the wave produced by the generator. In fact, a person purchasing a high quality, smaller generator that produces a sine wave output will always have a lower likelihood of having a problem IF they don't exceed the rated load capcity of that generator, compared to the person who purchases a larger generator that produces a choppy wave form, yet uses only a small fraction of that generator's rated capacity. If you stay within the rated load capacities - something that you must do anyway to help prevent a safety issue and avoid tripping the breaker on the generator (or blowing a fuse, depending on the model) - then it becomes a matter of how smooth the output is and what your equipment requires. There are numerous threads on this issue on this board.

"Inverter" generators, as they're often called, are generally small, high quality generators that produce a very smooth, even "true" sine wave. But producing that output quality becomes more expensive as you increase the load capacity (current output) so these are generally below 5,000 or so watts. They are great up to their capacity, but not cheap and obviously limited in what they can power just based on size. As rated capacity increases, manufacturers are more likely to offer generators that produce "choppier", less smooth wave forms that may not work well for some equipment, because producing "true sine wave" power at higher current ratings is expensive, and they have trouble selling them to most consumers.

The problem is, it's difficult to tell what a given item (stove, tv, furnace blower, etc) requires in advance in terms of power quality, although you cannot be too smooth, so that's the safer but more expensive way to err. And it's often difficult or impossible to determine how smooth a generator's output will be unless advertised as a sine wave generator. Every year there are many people who buy larger generators than they really need and find that they won't power something because of this "output quality" problem, or that they have purchased a generator that is too small for their needs - but the two issues are separate. Either are bad things to realize when the house temperature is dropping. But the issue is more complex than you stated, and requires more consideration and planning than just "buy a bigger generator" or "what brand should I buy?".

 

[Jason Knapp]

It could be that I may have been confused by his response. I believe what he was getting at is if a person overloads their generator they may see an issue. He also stated that the voltage regulators have come a long way and the waves tend to be cleaner than in the past.
The generator I have, Which is 10,000 surge, 8,000 running has performed really well, and powered pretty much my whole house, pellet stove included, except for the BIG load items, ie, cooking stove, dryer etc. with no issues and no spurious error codes. Maybe I've just been lucky?

 

[Madcodger]

It could be that I may have been confused by his response. I believe what he was getting at is if a person overloads their generator they may see an issue. He also stated that the voltage regulators have come a long way and the waves tend to be cleaner than in the past.
The generator I have, Which is 10,000 surge, 8,000 running has performed really well, and powered pretty much my whole house, pellet stove included, except for the BIG load items, ie, cooking stove, dryer etc. with no issues and no spurious error codes. Maybe I've just been lucky?

I suspect you bought a decent quality generator that's not "pure" sine wave but is a stepped wave that's good enough for most common electronics, and that you have a good quality board in your stove. If a person needs more than about 4000 watts of power, that's about as good as you can get and still be under a few thousand $. My concern in posting above is primarily to get people to think this through, rather than just run out and buy something off a truck or from a discount house, and then find that they have a problem right when they need power the most. Many generator merchants invoke "no return" policies during widespread power outages to prevent people from buying, using, and returning so people who just buy the wrong equipment would be stuck. Very happy your system is working well! Stay warm...

 

[stoveguy2esw]

I'm sorry to contradict, but that's just not accurate. I think you may have been talking about two different things in that conversation with the electrician, and that caused the mixup.

It's not that smaller generators are good or bad up to their rated load capacity, or that larger generators "don't have an issue". It's really a matter of what the powered equipment requires, as noted above, and the smoothness of the wave produced by the generator. In fact, a person purchasing a high quality, smaller generator that produces a sine wave output will always have a lower likelihood of having a problem IF they don't exceed the rated load capcity of that generator, compared to the person who purchases a larger generator that produces a choppy wave form, yet uses only a small fraction of that generator's rated capacity. If you stay within the rated load capacities - something that you must do anyway to help prevent a safety issue and avoid tripping the breaker on the generator (or blowing a fuse, depending on the model) - then it becomes a matter of how smooth the output is and what your equipment requires. There are numerous threads on this issue on this board.

"Inverter" generators, as they're often called, are generally small, high quality generators that produce a very smooth, even "true" sine wave. But producing that output quality becomes more expensive as you increase the load capacity (current output) so these are generally below 5,000 or so watts. They are great up to their capacity, but not cheap and obviously limited in what they can power just based on size. As rated capacity increases, manufacturers are more likely to offer generators that produce "choppier", less smooth wave forms that may not work well for some equipment, because producing "true sine wave" power at higher current ratings is expensive, and they have trouble selling them to most consumers.

The problem is, it's difficult to tell what a given item (stove, tv, furnace blower, etc) requires in advance in terms of power quality, although you cannot be too smooth, so that's the safer but more expensive way to err. And it's often difficult or impossible to determine how smooth a generator's output will be unless advertised as a sine wave generator. Every year there are many people who buy larger generators than they really need and find that they won't power something because of this "output quality" problem, or that they have purchased a generator that is too small for their needs - but the two issues are separate. Either are bad things to realize when the house temperature is dropping. But the issue is more complex than you stated, and requires more consideration and planning than just "buy a bigger generator" or "what brand should I buy?".

great post, you managed to explain the terminology i was referring to quite well.

 

[btbeam]

Well while I appreciate the great debate i am not sure I am any closer to an answer to the question of can I run my IP on the generator. My guess is that it isnt pure sine wave as if it was it would say that. Do you think there is any merit to the VRS system that westinghouse speaks of to regulate voltage? So would the stove just not work well or is it a matter of ruining the control board? If its likely that I will ruin the stove I will just use my oil burner during the outages. My area is not prone to outages like some are. I was out during hurricane sandy for 5 days and that's the only time in 15 years.

 

[SwineFlue]

i am not sure I am any closer to an answer to the question of can I run my IP on the generator. My guess is that it isnt pure sine wave as if it was it would say that.

Can you find a Total Harmonic Distortion spec (THD, the same spec used for good audio equipment) for your generator? A lower THD number is better. (For instance, Generac generators with True Power claim to have less than 5% THD and their inverter generators 3%.)

I believe you said it's a non-inverter generator... so it won't say "pure sine wave". "Pure sine wave" is a term used for inverters. Inverter generators use square-waves from a DC generator to create a stepped-approximation of a sine wave, and then "sine wave" ones smooth it out to get close to a sine wave. Non-inverter generators run an AC generator (an alternator), which by definition produce a sine wave.
Nothing produces a perfect sine wave under real-world loads. The THD number is an indication of the quality of the generator's final output waveform. As with audio equipment though, distortion varies with load so you can only use manufacturers' claims as a guideline.

One very inexpensive thing you can do: buy a Kill-A-Watt meter for around $30. Watch the voltage (120 V) and frequency (60 Hz) while a heavy load like a fridge or well pump kicks on. The generator should stay near those two values. This device can't display both at the same time, so you'll have to make multiple runs or use it along with a regular volt-meter. Also, the Kill-A-Watt can show you how much power is used by anything that can be plugged into a 120V outlet.

 

[Madcodger]

Well while I appreciate the great debate i am not sure I am any closer to an answer to the question of can I run my IP on the generator. My guess is that it isnt pure sine wave as if it was it would say that. Do you think there is any merit to the VRS system that westinghouse speaks of to regulate voltage? So would the stove just not work well or is it a matter of ruining the control board? If its likely that I will ruin the stove I will just use my oil burner during the outages.

Well here's the straight talk:

First, Stoveguy2esw is THE guy for Englander, as I recall. When you call the factory and they need to get the expert on the line? That'd be him, from what I understand. And he says you need SINE WAVE power. Now, that said, and proceeding at YOUR OWN risk:

As I understand it, VR systems essentially smooth out voltage variability as engine speed changes, which was always a problem with small generators. Does it improve power quality? Yes. Is it true sine wave electricity? No.

Can your stove run on your gennie? Well, there's only one way to find out, and there's risk to it. You might try it and find all is well (not terribly unlikely, but far from a sure bet). You might try it and have problems, and just shut it down with no permanent damage. Or you might fry your board... You have essentially an "official" reply, and that's "need sine wave". You do not appear to have that. Now, unfortunately, it's a matter of whether you feel lucky today...

 

[davisjo6]

Well here's the straight talk:

First, Stoveguy2esw is THE guy for Englander, as I recall. When you call the factory and they need to get the expert on the line? That'd be him, from what I understand. And he says you need SINE WAVE power. Now, that said, and proceeding at YOUR OWN risk:

As I understand it, VR systems essentially smooth out voltage variability as engine speed changes, which was always a problem with small generators. Does it improve power quality? Yes. Is it true sine wave electricity? No.

Can your stove run on your gennie? Well, there's only one way to find out, and there's risk to it. You might try it and find all is well (not terribly unlikely, but far from a sure bet). You might try it and have problems, and just shut it down with no permanent damage. Or you might fry your board... You have essentially an "official" reply, and that's "need sine wave". You do not appear to have that. Now, unfortunately, it's a matter of whether you feel lucky today...

An easy way to make sure your generator will work with the stove is to use a UPS where the stove is installed. Not only will it correct the not so great power coming from the generator, it will also keep your stove running for some time during a brief power outage. In the IT business, APC is regarded as a quality product, you should be able to source one at your local big box tech store.

 

[gfreek]

Hey btbeam does your oil fired furnace run OK on the generator and does it have a circuit board ?? I would get a small inverter generator for the stove...find what the stove draws for amperage and go from there..