So this is what I was told today

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Hope everyone has a wonderful and warm Thanksgiving!
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.
heaterman

heaterman

Minister of Fire
Hearth Supporter
Oct 16, 2007
3,374
Falmouth, Michigan
And it's a pretty good lesson for all of us here because it could happen in many types of things we take for granted. Things like Electricity, food products, grains like corn, wheat or oats. Stuf we use every day without thinking about it.

Regional LP distributors bought the supply for this winter early last summer. The contracted for a "normal" amount of product. That product has been used up plus any cushion they keep due to the sustained cold temps across the USA. The demand simply outstripped the inventory on hand.

The refiners/LP producers fulfilled their contractual obligations to these regional suppliers and also have other contracts for xxx gallons with other users. Mainly Europe where fuel is much higher than here. Those contracts have to be met also.

These regional gas suppliers now have no option but to pay the market rate and for the rest of the world, that is $3-4.00/gallon.

I'm hoping this is short lived and supplies free up because this could get really ugly by the time winter breaks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doug MacIVER and Coal Reaper
Heaterman, I was told by my supplier here in the U.P. that if I were not on contract I'd pay over 4 per gallon. I have heard rumors of over $5.00 per gallon. Getting ugly is exactly how I describe it and its going to get uglier!
 
Capitalism at its best. The sole goal is to make profit, the only responsibility is to the bottom line, short term demand in inelastic so the price can go sky high and people will have to pay. Economics 101.
 
  • Like
Reactions: arngnick and sloeffle
Same old line I been hearing since the mid 70's, Bottom line is any excuse is a good one to raise prices, or add surcharges. Even better when it is in a semi-non regulated commodity like propane, or waste disposal.
 
back many years ago I had to follow the hide market for leather. leather at the hide level is a commodity. our contracts were just that a contract, price til x number produced. changes up at the commodity level raised hell at the factory level. simple difference make money to pay employees and all, or lose money and go out of business. today at the energy companies they contract the services of a wsi or weatherbell to forecast their needs. the better your record the more customers they garner. one of the reasons I like reading what those guys have to say. so here is wsi thru feb http://www.wsi.com/blog/energy/sub-...ated-to-continue-through-the-end-of-february/
 
Besides heating degree days to worry about, I have hay degree days. When it this cold they all need a little more to keep" there" boilers running.
 
BillsWS said:
Heaterman, I was told by my supplier here in the U.P. that if I were not on contract I'd pay over 4 per gallon. I have heard rumors of over $5.00 per gallon. Getting ugly is exactly how I describe it and its going to get uglier!
Click to expand...

Bill, my buddies daughter just got 100 gallons Friday (max she could get) and paid $5.69/gallon ... plus 6% sales tax !! That will last her about 10 days maximum, probably less with -20F temps coming in tonite and lasting the next 3 days at least. This is already causing financial hardship for a lot of people and winter is only 1/2 over. Some places in the western U.P. are charging over $6/gallon....

When I see situations like this I remind myself that all the work I do to collect and process my firewood is definitely worth the effort. I can't imagine having to spend $6-8K on propane to heat my house for the winter !!! Yikes !

BTW, where are you in 'da U.P.?

Pat
 
What have the #2 heating oil prices been, and what are they now? Here in the far NothEast heating oil is king and has been since the coal era of the 50s. There has been a HUGE transition to LPG in the past year, and it has kept me very busy this summer and has been predicted to do so next summer as well.

TS
 
On my way home from shopping I came up behind an oil delivery truck that had the price posted on the back of the tank. $3.78/gal.
 
Have been hearing lots about the propane shortages hitting everywhere, which is really unfortunate for those that need it. What I wonder about is the possibility of switching to LNG. A friend sent me an article, that admittedly was very one sided, but was discussing the construction of Natural Gas liquification plants for prepping NG for export. Personally I think its a bad idea to export any of our energy sources, since all you hear about is limited demand and prices have to increase...

But this shortage highlights the idea that perhaps there could be a market in this country for LNG? I dont know the chemistry behind it, or a comparison of the energy densities of the fuels, but would be curious if its a market that could be developed here to help keep prices in check.
 
Here in southeast wisconsin the price Friday was 5.39 per gallon. Rumors are just that, rumors but the lady I talked to said she thought it may peak at 8.00 per gallon.
 
I guess most folks cant store enough propane for the whole winter. Probably not practical to do so. Makes it a gamble,so next best thing is a price lock contract and a wood stove or some type of solid fuel burner.
 
Clarkbug said:
Have been hearing lots about the propane shortages hitting everywhere, which is really unfortunate for those that need it. What I wonder about is the possibility of switching to LNG. A friend sent me an article, that admittedly was very one sided, but was discussing the construction of Natural Gas liquification plants for prepping NG for export. Personally I think its a bad idea to export any of our energy sources, since all you hear about is limited demand and prices have to increase...

But this shortage highlights the idea that perhaps there could be a market in this country for LNG? I dont know the chemistry behind it, or a comparison of the energy densities of the fuels, but would be curious if its a market that could be developed here to help keep prices in check.
Click to expand...
I'm ignorant of what it takes to handle LNG but I suspect it is not as easy as LPG. There's an outfit in the Burlington Vermont area that went into business last year liquefying natural gas from the pipeline and selling it to businesses that want to get off oil. Putney paper company in southern Vermont is one of the customers. I suspect there must be a reason for the way they are handling it. What they do is liquefy it and transfer it to the trailer and then park it at the business which uses it right off the tank and then they just swap out trailers when more is needed. Transferring it in the field must be a difficult process in order to justify the extra cost of leaving a trailer off the road for the time it takes to use the gas.
 
Clarkbug said:
perhaps there could be a market in this country for LNG?
Click to expand...

L(liquid)NG is a cryo-refrigerated liquid (-260F). It only makes sense in LARGE quantities, such as the ships they are using to transport it, or occasinally something as small as a tractor-trailer cryo-tanker. It's comparatively expensive to produce. C(compressed)NG is being used in some bus fleets, etc. - but it does not play well long-haul, since it needs about 4 times the space of diesel fuel for the same energy. It also means having a storage tank at ~3,300 PSI in the vehicle - or, if it was to be used for home purposes, next to your house. That also makes it comparatively hard to "home deliver" as the tanker would need to have a high pressure compressor on-board to fill tanks beyond the first part of its run.

For home-heat scale, off pipelines, the fact that propane is easily liquified at moderate pressure makes a huge difference in practicality - the truck can fill tanks as long as it has liquid in the bottom, and when it doesn't, it's effectively empty anyway.

Pipelines are the most effective connection to natural gas; but I don't expect to see one on my road, pretty much ever. Just not enough potential customers.

(broken link removed to http://publicservice.vermont.gov/publications/fuel_report)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Clarkbug and BoilerMan
Boil&Toil said:
L(liquid)NG is a cryo-refrigerated liquid (-260F). It only makes sense in LARGE quantities, such as the ships they are using to transport it, or occasinally something as small as a tractor-trailer cryo-tanker. It's comparatively expensive to produce. C(compressed)NG is being used in some bus fleets, etc. - but it does not play well long-haul, since it needs about 4 times the space of diesel fuel for the same energy. It also means having a storage tank at ~3,300 PSI in the vehicle - or, if it was to be used for home purposes, next to your house. That also makes it comparatively hard to "home deliver" as the tanker would need to have a high pressure compressor on-board to fill tanks beyond the first part of its run.

For home-heat scale, off pipelines, the fact that propane is easily liquified at moderate pressure makes a huge difference in practicality - the truck can fill tanks as long as it has liquid in the bottom, and when it doesn't, it's effectively empty anyway.

Pipelines are the most effective connection to natural gas; but I don't expect to see one on my road, pretty much ever. Just not enough potential customers.

(broken link removed to http://publicservice.vermont.gov/publications/fuel_report)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great info! I knew there must be some practical reasons or it would have happened already...
 
When I called for prices on #2 last week, it was $3.45/gal if I ordered 165 gal or more. I am planning to order 170 gallons this week, which should get me to the end of June. Last week of June prices are typically the lowest for the year. I'll fill the farm tank and fully fill the house tank then. Still stuck with oil for DHW and for these really cold days when the stove can't keep up.

There's a reason I have been lurking in the boiler room for a few months... A Vedolux with the pellet kit sounds pretty good right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: maple1 and Coal Reaper
simple.serf said:
When I called for prices on #2 last week, it was $3.I went5/gal if I ordered 165 gal or more. I am planning to order 170 gallons this week, which should get me to the end of June. Last week of June prices are typically the lowest for the year. I'll fill the farm tank and fully fill the house tank then. Still stuck with oil for DHW and for these really cold days when the stove can't keep up.

There's a reason I have been lurking in the boiler room for a few months... A Vedolux with the pellet kit sounds pretty good right now.
Click to expand...

Pellet kit? That would be very cool - but you've got 4-5 years of wood in your yard?

That's one reason i went the way I did - three potential fuel choices with one unit.
 
maple1 said:
Pellet kit? That would be very cool - but you've got 4-5 years of wood in your yard?

That's one reason i went the way I did - three potential fuel choices with one unit.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I want options. We burn about 10 face cords a year in our EPA stove. I would like to be able to get away from using oil, even when I or my wife are not able to tend the boiler. Pellets seem to me like a reasonable alternative to oil when needed.

I may go with a pellet unit as an add on for now to take much of the load off of the current oil burner, and add the boiler that I want (Econoburn 150 w 1000 gal storage in a separate boiler building) when the finances permit.
 
Clarkbug said:
Have been hearing lots about the propane shortages hitting everywhere, which is really unfortunate for those that need it. What I wonder about is the possibility of switching to LNG. A friend sent me an article, that admittedly was very one sided, but was discussing the construction of Natural Gas liquification plants for prepping NG for export. Personally I think its a bad idea to export any of our energy sources, since all you hear about is limited demand and prices have to increase...

But this shortage highlights the idea that perhaps there could be a market in this country for LNG? I dont know the chemistry behind it, or a comparison of the energy densities of the fuels, but would be curious if its a market that could be developed here to help keep prices in check.
Click to expand...


There was a story on the radio that in New Brunswick Canada LNG prices are skyrocketing. Up between 108-140% over the same time last year.
The owner of one commercial business said he fired up the old oil boiler after his LNG bill for December was $26,000!
This is the same LNG that is produced in Nova Scotia, piped through New Brunswick on the way to the Eastern US.

It sure makes 5 cord of well seasoned hardwood look cheap!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom