Steam Radiator Question

[mysticlaker]

Hi,

We have a single-pipe steam radiator system in our house (we also supplement heat with pellets). I have a situation with one radiator that is curious.

Our garage is heated and has a radiator that hangs horiziontally (it is very large, probably 12 feet). I noticed that they was no control valve on it, and occasionally you can see steam coming from the valve hole. So I bouth a variable control valve and installed it and put it on a medium setting (standard one from the home despot).

What happens next is that the whole radiator no longer gets any heat, and the other radiators in the house start to push out a lot more steam (making hissing noises that normally don't happen). When I remove the valve (from the now cold radiator compared to all the other warm ones) much steam is released, and the radiator warms up again. It's almost like this radiator acts as one place to relieve access steam pressure in the system, but any attempt to control it makes it turn off. I tried to then remove the valve screw to keep it as open as possible, but the same results occured (cold radiator, lots of steam from other radiator valves).

Any help would be appreciated on this. I'd like to get some temp control on this radiator, because it gets super hot which is wasted in our garage....

Thanks everyone for your help.

ML

 

[pybyr]

you really need to find someone who TRULY knows steam heat in general, and one -pipe systems in particular.

People who don't know such systems (and as they say, most of the people who designed or even thoroughly understood these systems are dead) usually do things that seem like solutions to a symptom, but in the end, throw the whole thing out of balance, because someone failed to get their head around how the whole system was intended to interact

you can start by looking at some of Dan Holohan's articles and books

(broken link removed to http://www.heatinghelp.com/heating-help.cfm?pageid=33)

(broken link removed to http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=8-115)

if you need it, I know a very talented and semi-retired true "steam man" here in VT who would probably be glad for a bit of work right now if you'd pay his time and cost to drive to where you are

good luck

 

[LeonMSPT]

Hi,

We have a single-pipe steam radiator system in our house (we also supplement heat with pellets). I have a situation with one radiator that is curious.

Our garage is heated and has a radiator that hangs horiziontally (it is very large, probably 12 feet). I noticed that they was no control valve on it, and occasionally you can see steam coming from the valve hole. So I bouth a variable control valve and installed it and put it on a medium setting (standard one from the home despot).

What happens next is that the whole radiator no longer gets any heat, and the other radiators in the house start to push out a lot more steam (making hissing noises that normally don't happen). When I remove the valve (from the now cold radiator compared to all the other warm ones) much steam is released, and the radiator warms up again. It's almost like this radiator acts as one place to relieve access steam pressure in the system, but any attempt to control it makes it turn off. I tried to then remove the valve screw to keep it as open as possible, but the same results occured (cold radiator, lots of steam from other radiator valves).

Any help would be appreciated on this. I'd like to get some temp control on this radiator, because it gets super hot which is wasted in our garage....

Thanks everyone for your help.

ML

In a single pipe steam system, all valves on all radiators have to be completely open. You cannot control the amount of heat from a specific radiator by partially closing a valve. Water accumulates behind the partially closed valve, effectively waterlocking the radiator and preventing steam from entering. No idea why it would have any effect on the rest of the system.

The steam goes back to water inside the radiator, and runs back to the boiler in the same pipe. It's got to be wide open to work.

 

[atlarge54]

What if you used insulation to reduce the radiator output?

 

[LeonMSPT]

That would allow the steam to enter, and the condensate to leave...

Ever see the flat "covers" on steam radiators back in the day? Those are to limit the heat coming off the radiator because they obstruct the airflow from bottom to top... When it's real cold you take them off and get blown out of the room by heat.

What if you used insulation to reduce the radiator output?

 

[LeonMSPT]

BTW,

The only thing in the world hotter than steam heat is a wood fire... but steam is so darned expensive.

That would allow the steam to enter, and the condensate to leave...

Ever see the flat "covers" on steam radiators back in the day? Those are to limit the heat coming off the radiator because they obstruct the airflow from bottom to top... When it's real cold you take them off and get blown out of the room by heat.

What if you used insulation to reduce the radiator output?

 

[mysticlaker]

Sorry, I think I described the part I put on and am adjusting incorrectly.

It is this part:

(broken link removed to http://www.hardwarestore.com/pop-print/larger-image.aspx?prodNo=2044)

As soon as I put it on, it shuts off the whole radiator, even I adjust the screw to an open setting. This, in turn, lets out steam in all other radiators and a fairly rapid pace.

Thanks for you help!

ML

 

[LeonMSPT]

Air bleeder... automatically lets air out of the radiator to allow steam to come in... the adjustment determines the rate of steam entering the radiator. Might give you a modicum of control of the heat as if the steam is delayed the radiator won't get as hot as fast.

Not quite grasping the mechanics of it letting all the steam out of the other radiators.

All the bleeder valves will let some air out when the system initially fires, it's how the steam replaces the air in the radiator. It's normal to hear pressure escaping when the boiler first fires and until the radiator gets hot. It's even normal to hear it from time to time once the radiator is hot. Sometimes they get bad and bleed full time... time for a new one when that happens, or some tinkering...

Sorry, I think I described the part I put on and am adjusting incorrectly.

It is this part:

(broken link removed to http://www.hardwarestore.com/pop-print/larger-image.aspx?prodNo=2044)

As soon as I put it on, it shuts off the whole radiator, even I adjust the screw to an open setting. This, in turn, lets out steam in all other radiators and a fairly rapid pace.

Thanks for you help!

ML

 

[LeonMSPT]

Do you "blow down" your boiler periodically?

Should be a valve, near the sight glass, off the "autofeed" that replaces water as it is needed by the system. This needs to have a bucket placed under it every couple weeks and get opened until all the mud is gone, and the "autofeed" dumps a bit of fresh water in.

Yes, it goes against everything that "conventional" hydronic types get pounded into them. Steam boilers are different critters and have to be treated differently. Periodically, steam boilers have to be blown down to prevent excessive water build up. Condensate will eventually plug up the lines and they will "BANG" with water hammer every time the system fires. Steam bubbles form in the water, and roll around in there.

Might be you need someone to come by and show you how to blow that thing down? Could be waterlogged, and not getting the heat out of it your should. Excess water in the system will delay heat to the radiators and force the boiler to run way longer than it should be for the amount of heat needed.

Sorry, I think I described the part I put on and am adjusting incorrectly.

It is this part:

(broken link removed to http://www.hardwarestore.com/pop-print/larger-image.aspx?prodNo=2044)

As soon as I put it on, it shuts off the whole radiator, even I adjust the screw to an open setting. This, in turn, lets out steam in all other radiators and a fairly rapid pace.

Thanks for you help!

ML

 

[LeonMSPT]

I've lived in two houses that had steam systems in them, and am familiar with how they work. Got called to my cousin's house a few years ago... person staying there to feed the dog called them where they were traveling and said, "No heat."

Being 25 below zero, cousin got a little concerned about his house. Called me up...

I went and checked things over... she hadn't tried resetting it... so I did. "Click", but nothing... so it's got power. Now how come it's locked out and won't fire?

Steam...? Yep. Try "blowing it down". HOLY COW!

They had 3 five gallon buckets full of water over what was needed in the system. Once it got down to where the autofill was flowing water back into the system to replace what was taken out... it unlocked and fired.

He'd never blown it down... didn't even know what it was.

Why would he? It's like a model T. Nobody today could fix one of the things, but you could nearly rebuild it with a lead pot, screwdriver, and a Gerber Multitool.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I had steam in my current house when we moved in. I used to have to take the valve right out of some of the radiators just to get the steam to reach them. My guess is someone did it deliberately to force steam to the unit and then left it that way.

 

[mysticlaker]

I blow down the boiler often. Get rid of the dirty water, add some clean water. When we first moved in (4 years ago) and I had it serviced the technician never saw anything like it. He had to remove probably 45 gallons of water from the system. It was a messy affair.

What is strange that putting an air bleeder back on the radiator would cause that radiator to shutdown, and so much other steam to go to other radiators. It's weird.

I guess my next move is to try and find someone local who can take a look. Other ideas are welcome.

Here are couple of pictures of the raditor itself, and the whole I am installing the air bleeder on.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Yep. Weird it is... likely not the first time...

Whole system works better without the valve?

How rusty were the threads?

Wondering if the radiator in the garage was an "add on", and the only way to get steam into it was take the bleeder out?

I know if a system isn't "balanced" correctly it causes all kind of ills.

Leon

I blow down the boiler often. Get rid of the dirty water, add some clean water. When we first moved in (4 years ago) and I had it serviced the technician never saw anything like it. He had to remove probably 45 gallons of water from the system. It was a messy affair.

What is strange that putting an air bleeder back on the radiator would cause that radiator to shutdown, and so much other steam to go to other radiators. It's weird.

I guess my next move is to try and find someone local who can take a look. Other ideas are welcome.

Here are couple of pictures of the raditor itself, and the whole I am installing the air bleeder on.

 

[henfruit]

hows every thing in medfa. i use to have a business next to the chelsea produce center. i dont miss mass.

 

[mrheat]

have a local heating tecnican check if the pressuretrol is set at the lowest setting, residential steam systems work best on a 1/2 lb of steam. higher pressures will cause air vents to not function properly in a small system

 

[pybyr]

You need a real Steam Man.

I know one; they're getting scarcer, most are dead and the rest are not getting any younger.

He was within a year of retiring when the company that bought the company that he loyally worked for canned him, 'cause he was old.

He'd probably drive down there for the cost of the gas and a decent day's pay- and your system would probably work better than ever before he left.

I have not asked him yet because I do not know if you want me to ask him- if you do, PM me

 

[WoodNotOil]

Steam systems are very expensive to run because they have to heat the water to the boiling point 212*F. When I changed my system over to hot water (usually 180*) even running on all oil was a lot less expensive to heat the house than it had been with steam. You could probably put in baseboards with a new boiler or on demand unit sized correctly and make up the cost in savings over just a couple of years. My steam boiler was able to be converted to hot water because it had just been replaced when I bought the house. (not sure if that is an option for you) Once you have a hydronic system, you would then have the flexibility to add wood when you could afford it. Just a thought... Also, I sold all my old radiators for scrap which helped offset cost. However, I hear metal prices are really low now.

 

[slowzuki]

Single pipe steam is usually quite expensive to convert due to the piping runs.

 

[mysticlaker]

I think single pipe systems are not easy to replace with hydronic systems because there is no return pipe. The whole house has to re-piped, and that is not something we would want to do I think.

We supplement with pellets, which is helpful with cost.

Thanks guys.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I ran my new system with pex and completely removed the steam system. I only left the pipes in the walls. I ran the baseboard and pex lines to them myself and had a contractor convert and hookup the boiler to them. I personally wouldn't reuse any steam piping for hydronics because of the age and buildup in them.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Yeah,

With a wood/coal add on boiler, ten zones, 1,300 feet of copper tubing, and a brand spanking new Burnham V-8/4 boiler, a Modine unit heater, I'd say you're looking at... hang on a second, got the slip right here...

21 grand

Of course, it's a 3,500 sf, three unit apartment building, with a heated basement now...

Significantly cheaper for a single family, 1,800 sf home... three, four zones... maybe 300 ft of pipe...

Single pipe steam is usually quite expensive to convert due to the piping runs.